2.0tdi faulty gates timing belt slipped 2 teeth 1 broken rocker

[Westcoast888]

Hi all

I’m in need of help again please

Might not be allowed but it is a 2.0tdi only it’s in my A3! So might be helpful to others. Long story short, missus’ 2011 A3 CFG 2.0tdi 16v on 70k went to local Indy for a timing belt and just over 12mths later slipped a couple of teeth. Apparently there was a batch of faulty gates belts but after 12mths no one wants to know! Any way I've taken the rocker cover off and I can see there is 1 broken rocker. I think I have retrieved all the parts but I’m guessing next step is to get the head off?

So is it time to order a new head or wait till I get the head off?

 

[DaveD]

I suppose head off is the only real way to assess the damage properly.
Also be aware that the cam lobes on the cam shafts might have rotated slightly on the shaft, I don't know how you'd check but I'd consider them scrap now, the risk of putting it all back together and turning the engine over by hand, (as I'm sure you would) then finding that they've turned and the valve timing is still wrong is too great, more knowledgeable people might disagree but that's my opinion.

 

[Westcoast888]

I suppose head off is the only real way to assess the damage properly.
Also be aware that the cam lobes on the cam shafts might have rotated slightly on the shaft, I don't know how you'd check but I'd consider them scrap now, the risk of putting it all back together and turning the engine over by hand, (as I'm sure you would) then finding that they've turned and the valve timing is still wrong is too great, more knowledgeable people might disagree but that's my opinion.

Thanks for the info. I was secretly thinking there might be a chance of ray of sunshine when I found just one broken rocker!

 

[Sasquatch]

Little consolation to you now, but Gates have a terrible rep in the Volvo world, enough I'd never use them on any car.

Of more help is the law. The consumer rights act is own your side, and the passing of 365 days is an irrelevance but one the garage will try and hide behind.

• the service must be carried out with reasonable care and skill. A trader must carry out the service to the same or similar standard to that which is considered acceptable within the vehicle repair industry.

This includes the parts. That the part was faulty and thus unfit for purpose (the purpose here being driving the camshafts until the next replacement period advised by the manufafturer) is entirely down to the garage. A belt intended to last  x years or y miles failing in such a time is not acceptable within the vehicle repair industry.

if they wont play ball I'd take them down the small claims route for the cost of the repair, less a small amount for the year of use you had before the item failed. Stick to your guns and they'll fold because a CCJ will seriously impede their ability to do business.

If they did stick it out for court it's unlikely they could argue that the belt they fitted was fit for the purpose desdribed above, and they are liable for consequential loss or damage (that's why they have insurance.) Charge a tenner for every phone call, email and letter you send while attempting to resolve this and you'll probably get that too - that less than minimum wage and each time I've been to court (twice now and won each time, a third caved in and paid the day before court) I've presented a schedule of all such contact I've made and the court awarded me the cash for my time.

Don't let it go would be my advice. Give them every opportunity to resolve it at their expense first and document everything.

At a technical level an endoscope will reveal any piston-valve contact without having to remove the head. They probably have on at least one pot, hence the broken rocker.

In addition, the cams are a massive forging (then carburized, quenched and tempered after machining) and the lobe will not have rotated. However, it's not impossible the timing pulley might have rotated on the shaft, although that's not terrible likely. The good news is these rockers are designed to be sacrificial to minimise the risk of damage elsewhere, so there's every chance a new rocker and timing it all up again may be all that is required. Fingers crossed!

Best of luck.

 

[DaveD]

Thanks for the info. I was secretly thinking there might be a chance of ray of sunshine when I found just one broken rocker!

And I hope that that's the extent of the damage, you are correct in thinking that you could replace the broken parts, fit a new belt and find that everything is fine.
The trouble is that at least one valve hit a piston, the forces involved are substantial, I think the only way to fully understand what damage has been caused is to take the head off.
As well as looking for damage to the valves and pistons it'd be a good idea to turn the engine over by hand and look for signs of bent con rods or other bottom end damage.

 

[DaveD]

In addition, the cams are a massive forging (then carburized, quenched and tempered after machining) and the lobe will not have rotated.

Many manufacturers no longer use forged camshafts (cost cutting) and often it's a single steel cylinder with welded or shrink fitted lobes, which in an extreme event like a cam belt failure, can rotate on the shaft. I don't know whether VW use forged camshafts or not but they're certainly not averse to penny pinching!

REPXPERT

www.repxpert.com

 

[oldiebut goodie]

I am sure that there have been posts on the forum concerning cam lobe spinning, with photos of a new shaft alongside one with spun lobes.

 

[Sasquatch]

I am sure that there have been posts on the forum concerning cam lobe spinning, with photos of a new shaft alongside one with spun lobes.

On a vehicle visibly equipped with sacrificial rockers?

Edit. I must apologise, have checked you probably do have a pressed cam so I shall flagellate myself.

Nevertheless, you also have sacrificial rockers which are specifically intended to prevent further damage so there is still a fighting chance you may have escaped damage elsewhere such as a spun lobe. Im just hoping I've not now jinxed it for you, fingers crossed

 

[oldiebut goodie]

I don't know - I just remember seeing it recently. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Dundee_Kev]

Gates are not good with warranty claims, or never used to be.

The garage that fitted the belt should deffo be involved if they are at least half decent. like @Sasquatch mentions, it should last its full service time. Unless something else has caused it to go.

You gotta push the garage that did the belt to fight your corner. If they spend a lot with their suppliers, then they should get good back up. I know if something goes wrong we usually get pretty good backup as we spend a lot every month with our suppliers.

Good luck

 

[oldiebut goodie]

this was one

 

[PhillH]

Hi @Westcoast888 sorry to hear this, what was the actual cause? Faulty belt? I recently had a INA tensioner fail after 200 mile on a 2.0 Tiguan, it was some kind of miracle but the belt kept enough tension but put up a cam/crank correlation fault . ECP swapped the kit and offered to pay towards the repair as we use them a lot. (The sump cover is full of oil from the replaced crank seal leaking, reason for a lot of belt failures on the DFS variant)


Anyhow, depends how much time you have but it seems with the new DFS engines you can get away with replacing rockers and swapping cam boxes (if needed). I would replace the rocker, check the cam box frame for cracks and check the lobes for scoring.
If it seems ok, put a belt on and turn it over by hand. If there is no contact then run it, you could pull the injectors and boro scope it for bits sat on the pistons if you wanted.

Pull the sump off and swap the filter incase of needle rollers.

I would try all this before taking the head off but I would certainly be asking the garage to contribute or even do the work.

There is a cam box on eBay here, not sure if it the right one without a proper look

AUDI A4 B8 8K2 08-15 CAM BOX 03L103286A | eBay

MPN: 03L103286A. Variant B8 8K2 Saloon 2.0 1968cc 120HP 88KW. 2013 AUDI A4 2.0 TDI 120 S LINE 4DR [08-15]. View All our A4 parts. Trim 2.0 TDI 120 S LINE 4DR. See all parts off this car. Our EPA Waste Facility Permit Number is WFP-MO-12-0025-02.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[DaveD]

On a vehicle visibly equipped with sacrificial rockers?

Edit. I must apologise, have checked you probably do have a pressed cam so I shall flagellate myself.

Nevertheless, you also have sacrificial rockers which are specifically intended to prevent further damage so there is still a fighting chance you may have escaped damage elsewhere such as a spun lobe. Im just hoping I've not now jinxed it for you, fingers crossed

After you posted "VW use exclusively forged camshafts" I decided that I must have been having memory failure as I'd seen VW camshafts with pressed on lobes, so I took the dogs for a walk and spent half an hour thinking that I was losing the plot, then got back in and couldn't even find your comment!

 

[Westcoast888]

Little consolation to you now, but Gates have a terrible rep in the Volvo world, enough I'd never use them on any car.

Of more help is the law. The consumer rights act is own your side, and the passing of 365 days is an irrelevance but one the garage will try and hide behind.

• the service must be carried out with reasonable care and skill. A trader must carry out the service to the same or similar standard to that which is considered acceptable within the vehicle repair industry.

This includes the parts. That the part was faulty and thus unfit for purpose (the purpose here being driving the camshafts until the next replacement period advised by the manufafturer) is entirely down to the garage. A belt intended to last  x years or y miles failing in such a time is not acceptable within the vehicle repair industry.

if they wont play ball I'd take them down the small claims route for the cost of the repair, less a small amount for the year of use you had before the item failed. Stick to your guns and they'll fold because a CCJ will seriously impede their ability to do business.

If they did stick it out for court it's unlikely they could argue that the belt they fitted was fit for the purpose desdribed above, and they are liable for consequential loss or damage (that's why they have insurance.) Charge a tenner for every phone call, email and letter you send while attempting to resolve this and you'll probably get that too - that less than minimum wage and each time I've been to court (twice now and won each time, a third caved in and paid the day before court) I've presented a schedule of all such contact I've made and the court awarded me the cash for my time.

Don't let it go would be my advice. Give them every opportunity to resolve it at their expense first and document everything.

At a technical level an endoscope will reveal any piston-valve contact without having to remove the head. They probably have on at least one pot, hence the broken rocker.

In addition, the cams are a massive forging (then carburized, quenched and tempered after machining) and the lobe will not have rotated. However, it's not impossible the timing pulley might have rotated on the shaft, although that's not terrible likely. The good news is these rockers are designed to be sacrificial to minimise the risk of damage elsewhere, so there's every chance a new rocker and timing it all up again may be all that is required. Fingers crossed!

Best of luck.

Thanks for the info, I’m not used to taking vehicles to garages as I don’t trust them very much and tend to do as much as I can myself. Ironically a timing belt change seemed a tad difficult at the time so thought I’d let the professionals handle it! I’m calling in there in the next few days for an MOT so will have another chat with them.

 

[Westcoast888]

On a vehicle visibly equipped with sacrificial rockers?

Edit. I must apologise, have checked you probably do have a pressed cam so I shall flagellate myself.

Nevertheless, you also have sacrificial rockers which are specifically intended to prevent further damage so there is still a fighting chance you may have escaped damage elsewhere such as a spun lobe. Im just hoping I've not now jinxed it for you, fingers crossed

I’ll research pressed cams to see what I have. I was amazed at the cleanliness inside the cam chest. I do tend to “over” service tho! I’ve also had the thought that there should be a few needle bearings floating around?

 

[Westcoast888]

Hi @Westcoast888 sorry to hear this, what was the actual cause? Faulty belt? I recently had a INA tensioner fail after 200 mile on a 2.0 Tiguan, it was some kind of miracle but the belt kept enough tension but put up a cam/crank correlation fault . ECP swapped the kit and offered to pay towards the repair as we use them a lot. (The sump cover is full of oil from the replaced crank seal leaking, reason for a lot of belt failures on the DFS variant)
View attachment 275151

Anyhow, depends how much time you have but it seems with the new DFS engines you can get away with replacing rockers and swapping cam boxes (if needed). I would replace the rocker, check the cam box frame for cracks and check the lobes for scoring.
If it seems ok, put a belt on and turn it over by hand. If there is no contact then run it, you could pull the injectors and boro scope it for bits sat on the pistons if you wanted.

Pull the sump off and swap the filter incase of needle rollers.

I would try all this before taking the head off but I would certainly be asking the garage to contribute or even do the work.

There is a cam box on eBay here, not sure if it the right one without a proper look

AUDI A4 B8 8K2 08-15 CAM BOX 03L103286A | eBay

MPN: 03L103286A. Variant B8 8K2 Saloon 2.0 1968cc 120HP 88KW. 2013 AUDI A4 2.0 TDI 120 S LINE 4DR [08-15]. View All our A4 parts. Trim 2.0 TDI 120 S LINE 4DR. See all parts off this car. Our EPA Waste Facility Permit Number is WFP-MO-12-0025-02.

www.ebay.co.uk

I think it was the tensioner that is at fault. I have also read something about the design changing along with the method of tensioning. If it was done the previous way the tensioner would be damaged. But I could be wrong!

 

[PhillH]

Have you not stripped the timing down? Be interesting to know the cause. Also if the studs where changed too incase they have failed or even a siezed water pump

 

[Westcoast888]

Have you not stripped the timing down? Be interesting to know the cause. Also if the studs where changed too incase they have failed or even a siezed water pump

Yeah, that’s how I found out the belt had jumped 2 teeth. The pump was replaced the same time as the belt and seems to be fine. There was some fraying to the side of the belt nearest the engine so guess it must have tracked over towards the engine
and jumped.looking at the middle picture I’ve just noticed the high pressure pump pulley bolts seem to be in a different position to where they might have been before. This photo was taken before any dismantling. We have owned the car since it was 4 yrs old and are the second owners. I had the timing belt changed at Audi when I first bought it along with its first BIG service. So this would be its second change.

 

[PhillH]

I was always worried about timing belts and relied on others but recently tacked my own. Done loads of research and watched YouTube videos until I had the confidence. The 2.0 and 1.6 are the same. Buy the tools and have a go yourself. The bolts in the cam pulley and HPFP need to be backed off to make it easier to get the belt on. Move to pulleys clockwise so when it is tensioned it pulleys the pulleys anticlockwise.

 

[Westcoast888]

I was always worried about timing belts and relied on others but recently tacked my own. Done loads of research and watched YouTube videos until I had the confidence. The 2.0 and 1.6 are the same. Buy the tools and have a go yourself. The bolts in the cam pulley and HPFP need to be backed off to make it easier to get the belt on. Move to pulleys clockwise so when it is tensioned it pulleys the pulleys anticlockwise.

Yes I think I’ll be doing them from now on. I’ve got factory manuals how hard can it be!