ADVICE REQUIRED...inconsistent reverse crunch! Under Warranty.

[Ricardo T]

Think I posted this ongoing problem last summer (but cant find it lol) when I first discovered that sometimes when I select reverse there would be a slight 'crunch' and the van would jolt ever so slightly.. 2016 lwb 5spd T32 102, 37k mls. Under warranty. On a visit to BMVS in the summer I asked Oli for his opinion and he thought there was a clutch/gearbox issue and gave me a quote for fitting of a new clutch and DMF( Thanks Oli.)
On the first occasion when I dropped the van off at Ipswich VWVC for them to have look at the service manager contacted me and said three technicians could not find anything wrong with it....so I went in and showed him the problem, and he agreed there was a problem, and could I leave it with them for longer. They replaced the DMF under warranty as play was found ,but it had not failed.
Still the same on my return home so booked it in again with the same problem. They replaced the gear linkage cable this time, (again it had not failed as such) and thought they had cured it. On collection it was still the same...pointed this out again and the service guy agreed that it is not how it is supposed to be.
So booked in for a third time and what do you know three different technicians couldn't find a problem....sometimes goes into reverse smoothly, other times not so, but with a crunch etc.
So I left Ipsw VWVC this afternoon a very unhappy bunny as they have said thats all they can do and are not really aknowledging that there is a problem now, although thats exactly how it was when I first took it in! They have said that to claim anything under warranty the part has to of 'failed', but the DMF and the gear linkage cable had not 'failed' as such.
In a further e mail tonight they have said that they are willing to remove the gearbox for a visual inspection for damage or failure and if they find something, that will be covered by warranty, but if not I will have to cover the cost of £575 +Vat. Whilst the gearbox is out they are also open to an independent inspection ay my cost.
So hope you have followed that, sorry but long winded...
Tried doing a video but it does not come across too well.
So what to do...
Do any of you guys have a similar issue?
Is that 'how it is'?
Should it be 100% smooth every time?
Am I trying to kid myself its not right.....never had a vehicle that was this inconsistent when selecting reverse.
Not sure where to go from here so any advice would be most welcome and appreciated.
Thanks in advance...

 

[Pauly]

I think the key is to get them to acknowledge the problem (which they kind of have by doing work already)

I had a similar intermitent issue with my DSG box and i had the same line from them that they would remove the box and if no fault found i would have to pay, i told them to F off and if they choose to take the box out then that is there decision and not mine all i want is my van fixed and its totally up to them how they do it !

If they cannot find/fix the problem tell them you want a new gearbox fitted, i opened a case with VW UK and moaned about the issues and ongoing tooing and froing (mine had been in several times for new clutch and again for new DMF etc totalled about 10 visits including oil leaks from the refitted box etc all lots of sorry but we cant find a problem etc etc i just kept pestering them and moaning and in the end i got a whole new DSG box fitted along with another new clutch/flywheel/DMF the whole shebang.

It was a long drawn out process and they tried to fob me off several times along the way but just dont accept no as an answer, if you are under warranty and there is a problem then they need to fix it. If they cant fix it tell them you want a new gearbox or they can take the van back .....

Keep records of all visits and interactions and document what has gone on as you may need to come back to this in the future !

Thats the customer sided view but keep in mind through all this they work for a company and have rules to follow, often they are not trying to screw you but need to cover there own backs etc etc dont take anything personally and dont cross any lines you cant retreat back over

 

[Pauly]

2016 vehicle ??
Whats your warranty status ?

 

[Dellmassive]

Is there a syncromesh for the reverse gear?

I'm not sure.

 

[Ricardo T]

I think the key is to get them to acknowledge the problem (which they kind of have by doing work already)

I had a similar intermitent issue with my DSG box and i had the same line from them that they would remove the box and if no fault found i would have to pay, i told them to F off and if they choose to take the box out then that is there decision and not mine all i want is my van fixed and its totally up to them how they do it !

If they cannot find/fix the problem tell them you want a new gearbox fitted, i opened a case with VW UK and moaned about the issues and ongoing tooing and froing (mine had been in several times for new clutch and again for new DMF etc totalled about 10 visits including oil leaks from the refitted box etc all lots of sorry but we cant find a problem etc etc i just kept pestering them and moaning and in the end i got a whole new DSG box fitted along with another new clutch/flywheel/DMF the whole shebang.

It was a long drawn out process and they tried to fob me off several times along the way but just dont accept no as an answer, if you are under warranty and there is a problem then they need to fix it. If they cant fix it tell them you want a new gearbox or they can take the van back .....

Keep records of all visits and interactions and document what has gone on as you may need to come back to this in the future !

Thats the customer sided view but keep in mind through all this they work for a company and have rules to follow, often they are not trying to screw you but need to cover there own backs etc etc dont take anything personally and dont cross any lines you cant retreat back over

Thanks @Pauly....should of mentioned its used vehicle warranty, they've mentioned 'extended warranty' in their communication. Bought from them last summer.
I don't think reverse has a synchromesh as it should not be selected whilst the vehicle is in motion, but it seems just like what the problem is.

 

[Pauly]

Go gentle, be nice and progressively build up
Let them know you will not accept a fob off and keep at them, contact VW UK as and when you need to

I really feel for you mate as I was in a similar position and it went on for over 2 years until I got it resolved, be truthful and be fair and I’m sure you will get there In The end

 

[DXX]

I bought my manual T6 with about 22K miles on the clock, the gearbox didn’t seem as smooth as my Audi, in fact it was pretty awful IMO.
Now at 45K miles one of us has broken in, it might be the gearbox or me, hard to say.

 

[dubber36]

I think I've had that happen on occasions with about every manual car I've had. Going into neutral, releasing the clutch before pressing it again to engage reverse does the trick.

 

[The Bear78]

Is there a syncromesh for the reverse gear?

I'm not sure.

My thoughts exactly and I'm sure the lack of one could create a crunch as the synchronising (for want of an alternative word) will always be random.

 

[Dellmassive]

what exactly gearbox have you got . . . . just looking through the VW SSP #237 for the 6spd 02t Gearbox.


"When reverse gear is selected, the reverse idler
gear is engaged on a separate shaft between
the input and output shaft, and the direction of
rotation the output shaft is changed.
All forward gears are synchronised. 1st and 2nd
gears have double synchronisers.
Torque is transmitted to the final drive gear, and
therefore also to the differential, via the output
shaft gear."







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.

 

[Ricardo T]

Thanks guys and @Dellmassive ..its a 5spd...been taking some advice and spoken to some gearbox specialists who say it should not really be like this. They have said that whilst stationary and by selecting first gear before reverse would stop the gearbox spinning and then engaging reverse should be smooth...which it does not sometimes...both gearbox specialists seem to say its more a clutch fault..clutch drag...

 

[Dellmassive]

hold on . . .

this one . .

https://www.t6forum.com/downloads/ssp-320-6-speed-manual-gearbox-0a5.105/

Shaft layout diagram For reasons of clarity, the shafts in the gear layout diagram are shown on one level. The actual shaft layout can be seen in the cross-section below. Forward gears 1 to 4 feature 3-cone synchronisation (Smith synchronisation). Gears 5 and 6 have simple synchronisation.

Reverse gear has simple outer ring synchronisation.

The torque is transmitted via three output shafts that are continually meshed with the final drive gear wheel. The torque is transmitted from the input shaft via either one of the output shafts to the final drive.





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[Ricardo T]

Weird thing is is sometimes does it very slightly in 1st gear too but not to the same degree as reverse....

 

[Dellmassive]

so . . . .

5 speed manual 02Z gearbox then?

 

[Dellmassive]

SSP 310 - 5 speed manual gearbox 02Z

https://www.t6forum.com/downloads/ssp-310-5-speed-manual-gearbox-02z.205/

 

[Mooncat]

The only reason you'll get a crunch going into reverse is if either the input shaft or output shaft are still rotating. The main cause is a lack of patience by the driver but I don't think it's the case here.

Depressing the clutch disengages the input shaft from the engine's crank but it's just been spinning at 800rpm so give it a moment to stop spinning first. If the clutch is dragging or the spigot bearing in the flywheel is running rough the input shaft could continue to spin. I see you've had a new flywheel fitted so they should have fitted a new spigot bearing (and ideally a new clutch plate)

If the vehicle is rolling slightly, that'll cause the output shaft to rotate which again can cause a crunch when engaging reverse.

If the vehicle is stationary and you've pressed the clutch for five seconds (to really make sure the input shaft has had time to stop rotating) before engaging reverse and it crunches, I'd be checking the hydraulic clutch.

 

[Ricardo T]

The only reason you'll get a crunch going into reverse is if either the input shaft or output shaft are still rotating. The main cause is a lack of patience by the driver but I don't think it's the case here.

Depressing the clutch disengages the input shaft from the engine's crank but it's just been spinning at 800rpm so give it a moment to stop spinning first. If the clutch is dragging or the spigot bearing in the flywheel is running rough the input shaft could continue to spin. I see you've had a new flywheel fitted so they should have fitted a new spigot bearing (and ideally a new clutch plate)

If the vehicle is rolling slightly, that'll cause the output shaft to rotate which again can cause a crunch when engaging reverse.

If the vehicle is stationary and you've pressed the clutch for five seconds (to really make sure the input shaft has had time to stop rotating) before engaging reverse and it crunches, I'd be checking the hydraulic clutch.

Thanks for that @Mooncat, is there a 'hydraulic' element to the clutch as well as a 'cable' element?

 

[catfood12]

The only reason you'll get a crunch going into reverse is if either the input shaft or output shaft are still rotating. The main cause is a lack of patience by the driver but I don't think it's the case here.

Depressing the clutch disengages the input shaft from the engine's crank but it's just been spinning at 800rpm so give it a moment to stop spinning first. If the clutch is dragging or the spigot bearing in the flywheel is running rough the input shaft could continue to spin. I see you've had a new flywheel fitted so they should have fitted a new spigot bearing (and ideally a new clutch plate)

If the vehicle is rolling slightly, that'll cause the output shaft to rotate which again can cause a crunch when engaging reverse.

If the vehicle is stationary and you've pressed the clutch for five seconds (to really make sure the input shaft has had time to stop rotating) before engaging reverse and it crunches, I'd be checking the hydraulic clutch.

It's one of these defo. You know they won't have fitted a new spigot bearing when changing the flywheel!....... Is it a bush or bearing on these ?

Also warped pressure plate can cause clutch drag, but you'd most likely get some clutch judder too. Or it's a duff pressure plate that may have been cooked at sometime in the past (used van) and the fingers have lost some temper and bend slightly, so the clutch isn't getting fully released.

I'd bet on the latter, especially as the OP says it's intermittent. Could be worse when clutch is hot/cold. As it's all been warranty work to date, they won't discretionally change anything as we might if we were doing the work ourselves.

Last resort (but very unlikely) if none of the above is bent pedal or worn thrust bearings and the crank is too far forwards. Either of which would not allow the clutch to disengage.

 

[Phil_j89]

The 5 speed uses an external slave cylinder with a separate release bearing in the gbox, 6sp uses an internal slave/release bearing.
There is no cable used Ricardo T, only hydraulic.

The crunch is something we've come across, more so on caddy rather than transporters. Although given that you say it does the fault in first, I would be looking in to an issue with the clutch rather than the box itself. Would be surprised if it was covered under warranty (whether VW extended or a non franchise warranty)

 

[Mooncat]

It's hydraulic and there's a handy little bleed block that I would be using to see if that improves matters before getting the spanners out.