Alpine vs Focal Speakers, anyone been able to compare?

[Cuiken]

I've just installed a Focal amplifier and the 200mm Focal speakers with T6 mounting kit into my van.

The good:
1. The tweeters are pretty nice. Much less fatiguing than the OEM ones.

The bad:
1. The woofers are pretty poor. Very boomy and lose composure when turned up loud (I've used the sound deadening material etc inside the doors.)
2. The amp cuts out every time the engine restarts. The head unit never did this.

All told, I'd say the improvement over the stock speakers is pretty marginal. and the amp behaviour is just really annoying in traffic.

Has anyone had an opportunity to test the Alpine speakers against the Focals? It'd be a big additional outlay but I'm just not impressed with the Focals and I'd like to get this install sounding decent.

I'm wondering if I might be better running 165mm Alpines off the head unit and then use the amp to drive a small sub instead.

 

[Howzat]

My vibe amp did this, only for a split second, but I agree it is annoying but becomes less so after a few weeks but then I swapped out my moll starter battery for a Bosch 95ah and that problem was gone.
I'm surprised to hear you think the focal speakers only have a marginal improvement over the OEM's as everyone here raves about them but when I upgraded to an amp and left the OEM speakers in place I noticed a huge improvement in the sound quality, so I'd be wary of going back to powering any speaker from the head unit. The only problem with the OEM speakers for me is I can't go very loud or drive huge bass through them so I was planning to upgrade to the isu200 speakers but now I'm wondering.

 

[Cuiken]

It's horses for courses but the Focals, to my ear, have a very uneven response. Some bass notes are quiet, others are very boomy. Basically, the speakers suffers from a large resonant frequency in the van door. Upshot is that, if you attempt to turn up the low frequencies via the EQ (to improve the quiet bass) the boomy resonance becomes very dominant and tiring to listen to.

As you say, the stock speakers are limited in terms of bass and volume but do at least have an even bass response and so are, for me, more musical. The Focals are fine for dance music but seem to struggle with other genres.

Possibly I'm asking for too much but I just thought I'd get a bit more bass but with similar fidelity to the stock drivers. I don't think the Focals manage that. Like I say though, the tweeters are pretty good (they are far less harsh than the stock ones). Potentially, the165mm Focals woofers will actually be better than the 200mm ones from a fidelity point of view (especially if paired with a sub) but I'm curious about the Alpines because they have a much larger magnet and so, possibly, better damping of resonance.

Thanks for the tip on the battery BTW, I noticed today that it doesn't happen if the engine is started immediately after stopping (less battery droop I guess). Looks like the Focal amp has a slightly aggressive low voltage cut out.

 

[Skyliner33]

It's horses for courses but the Focals, to my ear, have a very uneven response. Some bass notes are quiet, others are very boomy. Basically, the speakers suffers from a large resonant frequency in the van door. Upshot is that, if you attempt to turn up the bass via the EQ to improve the quiet bass, the boomy resonance becomes very dominant and tiring to listen to.

As you say, the stock speakers are limited in terms of bass and volume but do at least have an even bass response and so are, for me, more musical. The Focals are fine for dance music but, for me, struggle with other genres.

Possibly I'm asking for too much but I just thought I'd get a bit more bass but with similar fidelity to the stock drivers. I don't think the Focals manage that. Like I say though, the tweeters are pretty good. They are far less harsh than the stock ones. Potentially, the165mm Focals woofers will actually be better than the 200s from a fidelity point of view (especially if paired with a sub) but I'm curious about the Alpines because they have a much larger magnet and so, possibly, better damping of resonance.

Thanks for the tip on the battery BTW, I noticed today that it doesn't happen if the engine is started immediately after stopping (less battery droop I guess). Looks like the Focal amp has a slightly aggressive low voltage cut out.

I suggest you consider the Eton T6 upgrade speakers.

 

[Cuiken]

I suggest you consider the Eton T6 upgrade speakers.

Even more expensive again

Have you been able to compare them against the Focals?

 

[Skyliner33]

Even more expensive again

Have you been able to compare them against the Focals?

No not bern able to compare. However i was very impressed. I would have gone with them again but they don’t fit the new van.
However i would say give Peter a ring at Skipton Car Radio. They have some awesome kit in at not big money.

 

[Howzat]

There's no chance the woofers are wired the wrong way around? I only ask due to the good reviews here so just wondering if anything else is affecting the performance.

I don't think forking out £150 for speakers in place of cheapo OEM speakers and expecting them to be quite a bit better is asking too much. You pays your money 'n all that.
Which alpines are you on about?

 

[Cuiken]

There's no chance the woofers are wired the wrong way around? I only ask due to the good reviews here so just wondering if anything else is affecting the performance.

I don't think forking out £150 for speakers in place of cheapo OEM speakers and expecting them to be quite a bit better is asking too much. You pays your money 'n all that.
Which alpines are you on about?

Good question and a mistake I've made before. No, pretty sure they are wired with the correct polarity.

I was thinking of these Alpines:

Alpine SPC-106T61 16.5 cm Component Speaker System for Volkswagen T6.1

Alpine SPC-106T61 16.5 cm Component Speaker System for Volkswagen T6.1Speakers SPC-106T61 Alpine SPC-106T61 16.5 cm Component Speaker System for Volkswagen T6.1 - SPC-106T61Upgrade your Volkswagen T6.6.5 inch (17 cm) SPC-106T61 Alpine SPC-106T61 16.5 cm C

www.dynamicsounds.co.uk

They are also available in a 200mm design but they're a bit harder to find in that size.

 

[Cuiken]

Being a pedantic chap I borrowed a bit of measurement kit yesterday to figure out what is going on.

I did a frequency sweep through the speakers and measured the sound level in the cab. This allows you to figure out if you have a flat frequency response.

No system has a truly flat response but, especially in car audio, you're looking to avoid large peaks at specific frequencies. This is because, in the presence of road noise, the peaking frequency is all you end up hearing.

The frequency response of the Focals in the T6 showed a significant peaking in the response at around 120Hz. This is probably because the speakers are underdamped for the size of the door. It also tallies with how the system sounds (at least to my ears).

Because I tend to play most of my music through my phone, I downloaded an EQ app and attempted to dial out some of the peaking in the response. I found that around -3dB at 120Hz and +2dB at 60Hz made a big difference. It's still a bit 'woolly' but far less of an issue when you're on the move. I'll no doubt keep tweaking...

As it stands, with the EQ applied, I'm probably going to live with it. I can't face the additional expense and hassle of a new install.

I've obviously not tested this idea but I would be curious whether a better option would have been to go with a set of 165mm door speakers (Focal or Alpine) and something like the Focal IBUS2.1 sub under the driver's seat. Given the sub includes an amp for the front speakers (and detailed xover control) you wouldn't need to buy the separate amp for the front speakers so the overall cost would not be much greater. Just an idea.

Hope that helps someone who's considering an audio upgrade.

 

[Skyliner33]

Being a pedantic chap I borrowed a bit of measurement kit yesterday to figure out what is going on.

I did a frequency sweep through the speakers and measured the sound level in the cab. This allows you to figure out if you have a flat frequency response.

No system has a truly flat response but, especially in car audio, you're looking to avoid large peaks at specific frequencies. This is because, in the presence of road noise, the peaking frequency is all you end up hearing.

The frequency response of the Focals in the T6 showed a significant peaking in the response at around 120Hz. This is probably because the speakers are underdamped for the size of the door. It also tallies with how the system sounds (at least to my ears).

Because I tend to play most of my music through my phone, I downloaded an EQ app and attempted to dial out some of the peaking in the response. I found that around -3dB at 120Hz and +2dB at 60Hz made a big difference. It's still a bit 'woolly' but far less of an issue when you're on the move. I'll no doubt keep tweaking...

As it stands, with the EQ applied, I'm probably going to live with it. I can't face the additional expense and hassle of a new install.

I've obviously not tested this idea but I would be curious whether a better option would have been to go with a set of 165mm door speakers (Focal or Alpine) and something like the Focal IBUS2.1 sub under the driver's seat. Given the sub includes an amp for the front speakers (and detailed xover control) you wouldn't need to buy the separate amp for the front speakers so the overall cost would not be much greater. Just an idea.

Hope that helps someone who's considering an audio upgrade.

If you were not so far away you could have tested my install to compare. If you are ever down near sunny Manchester give me a shout.

 

[Cuiken]

If you were not so far away you could have tested my install to compare. If you are ever down near sunny Manchester give me a shout.

What are the details of your install? Curious to understand what other options would be.

Cheers.

 

[Skyliner33]

What are the details of your install? Curious to understand what other options would be.

Cheers.

Audison Voce AV 6.5" 2 way
Audison SR 5.600
Emphaser 10" subwoofer.

 

[Jonah1972]

Being a pedantic chap I borrowed a bit of measurement kit yesterday to figure out what is going on.

I did a frequency sweep through the speakers and measured the sound level in the cab. This allows you to figure out if you have a flat frequency response.

No system has a truly flat response but, especially in car audio, you're looking to avoid large peaks at specific frequencies. This is because, in the presence of road noise, the peaking frequency is all you end up hearing.

The frequency response of the Focals in the T6 showed a significant peaking in the response at around 120Hz. This is probably because the speakers are underdamped for the size of the door. It also tallies with how the system sounds (at least to my ears).

Because I tend to play most of my music through my phone, I downloaded an EQ app and attempted to dial out some of the peaking in the response. I found that around -3dB at 120Hz and +2dB at 60Hz made a big difference. It's still a bit 'woolly' but far less of an issue when you're on the move. I'll no doubt keep tweaking...

As it stands, with the EQ applied, I'm probably going to live with it. I can't face the additional expense and hassle of a new install.

I've obviously not tested this idea but I would be curious whether a better option would have been to go with a set of 165mm door speakers (Focal or Alpine) and something like the Focal IBUS2.1 sub under the driver's seat. Given the sub includes an amp for the front speakers (and detailed xover control) you wouldn't need to buy the separate amp for the front speakers so the overall cost would not be much greater. Just an idea.

Hope that helps someone who's considering an audio upgrade.

I have the focal 165 & iBus 2.1 setup in my T6.1 the sound is now vastly superior to the original factory set up. The sub/amp combo handles the lower frequency ranges well and has a crossover to ensure the door speakers don’t try to drive too low in the frequency range and keep the fidelity.
Audiophile quality- no. No matter how much I play with the crossovers and gain there are always compromises in the sound. I think in part it is to do with the quality of the output from the factory head unit.
In short the focal kit + sub is a worthwhile investment to provide dramatically improved quality over OEM and is good bang for buck but if you truly seek audio perfection you will have to consider alternatives.

 

[Cuiken]

What are the details of your install? Curious to understand what other options would be.

Cheers.

Audison Voce AV 6.5" 2 way
Audison SR 5.600
Emphaser 10" subwoofer.

Now that is a serious setup

I fear if I heard that then I'd never be able to go back!

 

[Cuiken]

I have the focal 165 & iBus 2.1 setup in my T6.1 the sound is now vastly superior to the original factory set up. The sub/amp combo handles the lower frequency ranges well and has a crossover to ensure the door speakers don’t try to drive too low in the frequency range and keep the fidelity.
Audiophile quality- no. No matter how much I play with the crossovers and gain there are always compromises in the sound. I think in part it is to do with the quality of the output from the factory head unit.
In short the focal kit + sub is a worthwhile investment to provide dramatically improved quality over OEM and is good bang for buck but if you truly seek audio perfection you will have to consider alternatives.

Thanks. That's useful info. I appreciate audiophile quality in a van is going to be a bit of a stretch no matter what you do (though @Skyliner33 's setup might get close ).

Sounds like your focal setup is a good compromise though. Is there much hassle getting all the wiring routed to/from the underseat sub and how'd you mount it?

I agree that the factory head likely imposes some of its own limitations. I'm not crazy fussy though, just want to get a musical sounding install.

Having said I'm going to 'live with' the 200mm Focals, I now predict about 6 months of umming and erring before buying the IBUS2.1 and installing that....

 

[Skyliner33]

Thanks. That's useful info. I appreciate audiophile quality in a van is going to be a bit of a stretch no matter what you do (though @Skyliner33 's setup might get close ).

Sounds like your focal setup is a good compromise though. Is there much hassle getting all the wiring routed to/from the underseat sub and how'd you mount it?

I agree that the factory head likely imposes some of its own limitations. I'm not crazy fussy though, just want to get a musical sounding install.

Having said I'm going to 'live with' the 200mm Focals, I now predict about 6 months of umming and erring before buying the IBUS2.1 and installing that....

I appreciate you were not asking about my sub but this is it (not that you can see much sorry:

 

[Cuiken]

I appreciate you were not asking about my sub but this is it (not that you can see much sorry:

View attachment 133241

I did take a look at your build thread. It looks awesome.

Where'd you relocate all the wiring to?

Cheers.

 

[Skyliner33]

I did take a look at your build thread. It looks awesome.

Where'd you relocate all the wiring to?

Cheers.

Thanks.

If you mean the fuse holders and othee stuff under the drivers seat, there is spave beside the sub box under the drivers seat. The are velcroed to the seat base.

 

[Jonah1972]

Thanks. That's useful info. I appreciate audiophile quality in a van is going to be a bit of a stretch no matter what you do (though @Skyliner33 's setup might get close ).

Sounds like your focal setup is a good compromise though. Is there much hassle getting all the wiring routed to/from the underseat sub and how'd you mount it?

I agree that the factory head likely imposes some of its own limitations. I'm not crazy fussy though, just want to get a musical sounding install.

Having said I'm going to 'live with' the 200mm Focals, I now predict about 6 months of umming and erring before buying the IBUS2.1 and installing that....

The running of cables is relatively easy if you remove the seats and lower dashboard. Plenty of tutorials on YouTube etc. The sub came with a iso lead and I purchased a vehicle specific ISO breakout lead. Plug and play in effect.

 

[KT6B]

I’ve just added a kenwood psw8 under seat sub to the focal isu 200 speakers which are powered by the focal 4.320 amp that I put in a few weeks ago, very impressed with the sound now even with all settings at minimum.
The speakers alone were a big improvement over factory just needed a little boost, the sub takes care of the bass and the focals take care of the rest. The volume range is also much better now the focals aren’t doing all the work I found it was too punchy too soon beforehand even on low settings.

No issue with amp switching off.