Lumpy T6 - Triggers Broom! Misfire & Vibration under 1500rpm.

[Blind_Spark]

Hi All,

I have a 2018 T6, that I'm running out of patience with... and garages... So I have purchased VCDS to try and get to the bottom of it...

First issue was it started to use coolant, I swapped a known good charge cooler to eliminate that, Max to min in around 100 miles, So took it to VW specialist in MK about 10 miles away, on route it started misfiring at low rpm, EGR/Cooler changed for £1.4k also asked them to diagnose misfire, they compression tested it and said the results were fine, they diagnosed it as the duel mass flywheel being worn and caused a engine imbalance or the Revo map had gone bad...

Had Map removed - No different.

Garage 2 - VW Specialist, Diagnosed it as injector 2 off the scale on VCDS - recommended replacement but couldn't do it for 2 weeks - I cant wait that long as its a work van in daily use, Said DMF is worn but not that cause.

So I fitted 1Brand new injector, seals etc, coded in, it was better but not perfect, So I decided to do the other 3, (Made no real difference) when its up to temperature it drives almost perfectly, but there is a very slight diesel knock at low rpm (1-1.5k) under load. Best mpg its ever given!

On a cold start its horrific, Its hunting, sending vibrations through the entire van, Stinks of unburnt diesel, yet showing no faults on VCDS at all, Where do I go from here? Garage 2, doesn't know what it is.

Could a failing HPFP be causing this?, Could the HPFP timing be out? Would it show a fault? (Had a cambelt about 6 months ago) (Fuel filter 8k ago)

- Video of a cold start.

Monday,03,July,2023,17:36:11:22064
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 11 x64
VCDS Version: 23.3.1.0 (x64)  HEX-V2 CB: 0.4631.4
Data version: 20230421 DS346.2
www.Ross-Tech.com




Chassis Type: 7H-VN75 (7E0)
Scan: 01 02 03 04 08 09 10 13 15 17 19 25 5F 61 69 0B

VIN: WV1ZZZ7HZKX002183   Mileage: 93840km-58309miles

01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
02-Auto Trans -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
04-Steering Angle -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
10-Park/Steer Assist -- Status: OK 0000
13-Auto Dist. Reg -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
5F-Information Electr. -- Status: OK 0000
61-Battery Regul. -- Status: OK 0000
69-Trailer -- Status: OK 0000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine (2D2D2-CXHA)       Labels:. 04L-907-309-V2.clb
   Part No SW: 04L 906 056 KG    HW: 04L 907 445 
   Component: R4 2.0l TDI   H02 3771  
   Revision: 23002001    
   Coding: 00254014432401090000
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ECM20TDI03004L906056KG 004004
   ROD: EV_ECM20TDI03004L906056KE_004.rod
   VCID: 7CA1E713266E04EA533-8028
   VINID: 9E606AAAA1D8A9BA000020480CDD0BF2E2

No fault code found.
Readiness: N/A

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans (J743)       Labels:. 0BH-927-711.clb
   Part No SW: 0BT 300 046 J    HW: 0BH 927 711 G
   Component: DSG DQ500-7F  H11 5301  
   Revision: 00H11V01    CVN: A5BFDF55
   Coding: 0014
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_TCMDQ500021 001001
   ROD: EV_TCMDQ500021_001_VW36.rod
   VCID: 3D272A177DF4CDE224D-8068

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes (J104)       Labels: 7E0-907-37x-MK100ESC.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 907 379 P    HW: 7E0 907 379 M
   Component: ESC           H06 0133  
   Revision: 00000000    Serial number: 62268000001506
   Coding: 517E4098256284808A76027EA48521E679F100
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Brake1ESCCONTIVN75XGP2 011001
   ROD: EV_Brake1ESCCONTIVN75XGP2_011.rod
   VCID: 3FDB501F77F8DFF2361-806A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 04: Steering Angle (G085)       Labels:* 6R0-959-654.clb
   Part No SW: 6R0 959 654     HW: 6R0 959 654 
   Component: LENKW.SENSOR  H07 0070  
   Serial number: 16081813471730
   Coding: 01
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   ASAM Dataset: EV_LWSKLOVW25X 005001
   ROD: EV_LWSKLOVW25X.rod
   VCID: 7EA5ED1B307216FA7D7-802A

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC (J301)       Labels:| 7E5-907-047.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 907 047 AK    HW: 7E0 907 047 AK
   Component: Climatic-T5   H22 0708  
   Revision: 00001002    
   Coding: 0000000003
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ClimaticT5 A01003
   ROD: EV_ClimaT5Basis.rod
   VCID: 73B3CC2F0B304B92029-8026

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. (J519)       Labels:. 7E0-937-BCM-V1.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 937 090 D    HW: 7E0 937 090 D
   Component: BCM PQ25 Max4 H82 0762  
   Revision: B9082001    Serial number: 8601 219180104
   Coding: A0A4303A0A61343193284F746CEB9E740F84708F60CC6D60330400220840
   Shop #: WSC 35110 377 00147
   VCID: 2C011753960E546A833-8078

   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 5K7 955 559 C  Labels: 5K7-955-559.CLB
   Component: RLS 100818 05  50  0106 
   Coding: 0228EE

   Subsystem 2 - Part No SW: 7E0 959 801 R    HW: 7E0 959 801 R  Labels: 7E0-959-80X-V2.CLB
   Component: J386__TSG_FT  005 0653 
   Serial number: KU0KU029031880880007
   Coding: 1400B1

   Subsystem 3 - Part No SW: 7E0 959 802 Q    HW: 7E0 959 802 Q  Labels: 7E0-959-80X-V2.CLB
   Component: J387__TSG_BT  004 0653 
   Serial number: KU0KU005061881561451
   Coding: 0400A1

   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 7E1 951 172 
   Component: DWA-Sensor 00  001 0104 
   Coding: 000000

   Subsystem 5 - Part No: 1K0 951 605 F
   Component: LIN BACKUP HO  H01 0008 
   Coding: 000000

   Subsystem 6 - Part No: 7E1 951 172 
   Component: DWA-Sensor 00  001 0104 
   Coding: 000000

   Subsystem 7 - Part No SW: 7E0 959 442     HW: 7E0 959 442   Labels: 3C8-959-537.CLB
   Component: E221__MFL-DC1  H02 0103 
   Serial number: 39180001297260108282
   Coding: B0FFFF

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 10: Park/Steer Assist (J446)       Labels:| 7E0-919-475.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 919 475 T    HW: 1Q0 919 475 
   Component: PARKHILFE 4K  H03 0212  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 32931817401948
   Coding: 11810A
   Shop #: WSC 12345 123 12345
   ASAM Dataset: EV_VW75XParkAssis4K 001013
   ROD: EV_VW75XParkAssis4K_001.rod
   VCID: 43D35CEF1B10BB12529-8016

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 13: Auto Dist. Reg (J428)       Labels:| 7N0-907-572.clb
   Part No SW: 7N0 907 572 C    HW: 7E0 907 572 
   Component: ACC Bosch PQx H03 0211  
   Serial number: 0108180438A5B8
   Coding: 00005800FE0779
   Shop #: WSC 12345 123 12345
   ASAM Dataset: EV_ACCBEGVW361 001006
   ROD: EV_ACCBEGVW361.rod
   VCID: 3635353B58C21EBAE57-8062

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags (J234)       Labels:| 5K0-959-655.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 959 655 J    HW: 7E0 959 655 J
   Component: VW10Airbag021 010 0018  
   Revision: --------    Serial number: 003EK0023JX8 Dataset Number: 7E0003V____ 0905
   Coding: 000000000000000000000000000000003231
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_AirbaVW10BPAVW12X 001028
   ROD: EV_AirbaVW10BPAVN750.rod
   VCID: 3D272A177DF4CDE224D-8068

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments (J285)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-17.clb-SRI1
   Part No SW: 7E0 920 971 A    HW: 7E0 920 971 A
   Component: KOMBI         H02 2030  
   Serial number: 00000000000000
   Coding: 750B010300
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09 A05736
   ROD: EV_Kombi_UDS_VDD_RM09_005_VW25.rod
   VCID: 290FEE47997C4142785-807C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway (J533)       Labels:. 7E0-909-901.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 909 901     HW: 7E0 937 090 D
   Component: GW-K-CAN TP20 H82 0762  
   Revision: B9082001    
   Coding: 042307
   Shop #: WSC 35110 377 00147
   VCID: 6889AB434276B84AA7B-803C

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer (J334)       Labels:| 5K0-920-xxx-25.clb
   Part No SW: 5K0 953 234     HW: 5K0 953 234 
   Component: IMMO          H02 2030  
   Serial number:               
   Coding: 000002
   Shop #: WSC 35110 790 50316
   ASAM Dataset: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09 A03710
   ROD: EV_Immo_UDS_VDD_RM09_VW21.rod
   VCID: 6A8DD14B5CFA8A5AB1F-803E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 5F: Information Electr. (J794)       Labels:| 5G0-035-MIB-STD2.clb
   Part No SW: 5C0 035 680 G    HW: 5C0 035 680 G
   Component: MU-S-ND-ER    H41 0472  
   Serial number: VWZAZ2U0996382 Dataset Number: V03935266VJ 0001
   Coding: 065700013C00000011111101008808001F0100C6002001004F
   Shop #: WSC 12434 002 1048576
   ASAM Dataset: EV_MUStd4CTSAT 001022
   ROD: EV_MUStd4CTSAT_VW32.rod
   VCID: 2517E277F56465225CD-8070

   Data carrier: 
   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 5NA 919 866 BH    HW: -----------
   Component: ECE1 2022  --- 1730 
   Serial number: --------------------

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 61: Battery Regul. (J840)       Labels:. 1K0-907-534.clb
   Part No SW: 7E0 907 534     HW: 7E0 937 090 D
   Component: Batt.regelung H82 0762  
   Serial number: 8601 219180104
   Coding: 030B1A73
   Shop #: WSC 35110 377 08192
   VCID: 6889AB434276B84AA7B-803C

   Subsystem 1 - Part No SW: 7E0 915 181 K    HW: 7E0 915 181 K
   Component: J367-BDMConti  H03 1050 
   Serial number: 758857000018071201ED

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 69: Trailer (J345)       Labels:. 1K0-907-383-V2.clb
   Part No SW: 1K0 907 383 G    HW: 1K0 907 383 G
   Component: Towbar module H10 0110  
   Revision: 3A001001    Serial number: ÀÁ006789XXXXXX
   Coding: 0100000100000000
   Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
   VCID: 313F0627B12C3982B05-8064

No fault code found.

End----------(Elapsed Time: 02:04, VBatt start/end: 14.6V/14.7V)-----------

Cold Idle ^

 

[mmi]

Please make a recording as follows:

Turn IGN on -

In VCDS tick the following under Engine > Advanced Measuring Values

IDE00021 Engine RPM​

IDE00083 Throttle valve position (absolute)​

IDE00347 Air mass: actual value​

IDE00351 Main injection: start of activation​

IDE00352 Main injection: duration of activation​

IDE00401 Intake manifold Runner Control (IMRC): acknowledgment​

IDE00589 Fuel pressure​

IDE04269 Intake manifold runner actuator: activation​

IDE07738 Charge air cooler inlet: pressure sensor 1 bank 1: raw value​

IDE07742 Cylinder head: pressure sensor 3 bank 1: raw value​

IDE07744 Particle filter: air pressure sensor 1 bank 1: raw value​

IDE07757 Exhaust recirc.valve 1 bank 1: posit.feedback - Actual value​

​

Tick Group UDS requests - by 7 (IMPORTANT!!!)

Log - Start

Start the engine - let the engine run for at least 180 seconds (keep eye out at around 120 seconds - any change at tone?)

Stop logging.

---

Please make a full engine blockmap

• VCDS > Applications > Controller Channel Map >
  • 
    
    
• Tick the boxes as above and click Go

---

Please post/attach the two log files (in folder C:\Ross-Tech\VCDS\Logs\...)

 

[Dellmassive]

Was just gonna say we need a @mmi data set scan for this one.

 

[Pauly]

Seems like the best man for the job just entered

My advice is just do what he ^^^ says
(cos no one else can understands it )

 

[Shaun Witts]

Could it be something as simple as a failed diesel heater? At least the cold start issue.
I’m not a diesel expert (mines a petrol) but I had something similar happen years ago (maybe diesels are different nowadays?).

 

[Chippie1]

Seems like the best man for the job just entered

My advice is just do what he ^^^ says
(cos no one else can understands it )

Glad you said what I was thinking I often read these threads where @mmi asks for this information and can honestly say it goes straight over my head I’m amazed by it! I struggle with setting the cruise control

 

[Blind_Spark]

Thank you so much for all your help with this, Think I have done this right. although I did start the van then press log within 5 seconds,

I can do it again in the morning if that's no good.

I didn't notice any difference at 120 seconds.

 

[Blind_Spark]

I have attached the blockmap too.

 

[mmi]

I didn't notice any difference at 120 seconds.

Thanks - was just curious because the T6 engines shut off glow plug "post heating" then - shouldn't be noticeable.

Anyways, most of the values look normal - fuel pressure, EGR position, etc. However, the lumpy idle is obvious (as can be even heard). Below engine RPM plotted with main injection duration. For comparison see also a plot in same scale from a healthy engine.



For comparison a healthy idling:


I think the takeaway is that ECU is trying to stabilise the idling RPM by injecting extra dose of fuel and sometimes even (almost) cutting off the injection. For normal run the injection variation in within 100 microseconds but in yours the variation is about 400 µs (overdosing).

Even though the VCDS is quite fast in sampling (about 6 samples (of 12 values)/second) the engine is still running too fast (13 revs/sec = 830 RPM) so we get only an "overall" picture what's going on - just a snapshot every two revs.

I'm inclined to think it's the dual mass flywheel is throwing engine revs out of balance - the pendulums inside the DMF moves around uncontrollably, or is/are stuck, thus engine actually accelerates and decelerates violently due to power strokes.

As the DMF is diagnosed to be worn I would start by replacing it ASAP.

Also noted the Fuel injection time deviation values in your picture - never seen such a deviation. I believe the ECU is just desperately trying to balance it's run. I was hoping to catch them in the blockmap but unfortunately the engine was off then.

Think I have done this right. although I did start the van then press log within 5 seconds,

Yes, I think we have gathered enough. However, the startup is a kind of interesting/special case because then everything is accelereting only (no deceleration) thus e.g. injection duration is not "oscillating" at the moment. Not sure if it's valuable piece of information - but a fascinating moment anyways .

If you still want to run a VCDS session - the same procedure but ticking only the following - starting logging before cranking. It would be appreciated - trying to learn how the engine adapts the deviation values (normally they travel well below ±20 µs).

IDE00021 Engine RPM​

IDE00347 Air mass: actual value​

IDE00352 Main injection: duration of activation​

IDE12085 Fuel injection time deviation: cylinder 1​

IDE12086 Fuel injection time deviation: cylinder 2​

IDE12087 Fuel injection time deviation: cylinder 3​

IDE12088 Fuel injection time deviation: cylinder 4​

 

[Blind_Spark]

Hi mmi,

Thank you for taking time to look at this for me, it is very much appreciated.

I have just been out and done a log and blockmap as requested, please note that the van has done around 20miles so is now warm.

Just to add - its not using any oil or water, and no signs of mixing, did have a burst of smoke under heavy acceleration but soon dissapeared.

 

[Blind_Spark]

I also forgot to mention - Sorry

That I had the DMF replaced last week as a precaution. I'm now 4.5k in and its still not right.

 

[mmi]

Hi mmi,

Thank you for taking time to look at this for me, it is very much appreciated.

I have just been out and done a log and blockmap as requested, please note that the van has done around 20miles so is now warm.

Just to add - its not using any oil or water, and no signs of mixing, did have a burst of smoke under heavy acceleration but soon dissapeared.

Thanks! Sorry to bother - but it seems that the setting "Group UDS requests - by 7" was not ticked - thus sampling rate is not great - shows only a measurement set every 10 revolutions.

I also forgot to mention - Sorry

That I had the DMF replaced last week as a precaution. I'm now 4.5k in and its still not right.

Now that's interesting... not an easy one then...

 

[Blind_Spark]

My apologies here is a new one.

 

[Nam600]

From the above file, you can clearly see cylinder 2 has positive deviation while all 3 others are negative and positive. (#4 seemingly spending most time in negative) I would check again to see if when they changed #2 injector that they also coded the ecu with the correct injector settings. Could be that injector 2 had failed but if they changed it without entering the correct coding, the problem would be the same or worse as likely that the injector is activating at the wrong timings. Also check they used the correct injector as there may well be differences between a 102, 140, 150, 180, 204BHP injector.

 

[Blind_Spark]

Thank you for taking the time to look.

I fitted the injectors myself and coded them with vcds, I have checked and double checked that I coded them in right. They are all the same VW part number.

It's strange how originally injector 2 failed, and now it's again injector 2 that's giving the odd result.

Shall I swap injector 1>2 over and see if it makes any difference?

I have just done 60 miles, idling smoothly, no noticeable misfire or smell, no fault codes.

Have attached image of injection deviations after 60 miles.

 

[Nam600]

Can you take a screen from the injector codes? 01-Engine, Long Adaptation. Did the new injectors come with the new code stamped/etched on the main body or somewhere on the top or did they come with a label/code printed separately? One other interim check is to take a look at the timing belt and check it has not jumped/slipped. (Unlikely but rule it out) And at risk of being captain obvious: Did you enter the new codes in the correct cylinder location? IE: #1 cyl being at the alternator end of the engine and #4 at the gearbox side?

 

[mmi]

Plots from take II (post #10)​

Injection duration "jitter" is somewhat less (300 us) than when engine was cold.​

Injection time deviations from take II (post #10)​

​

Plots from take III (post #13)​

Unfortunately "IDE00352 Main injection: duration of activation" was missing from the data - however, don't expect it to be any different than the previous ones.

​

Injection time deviations from take III (post #13)​

 

[Nam600]

Looks like #4 is odd. Following the firing order 1, 3, 4, 2 it looks like 4 is being fired for a shorter time when the ECU calculates offset/adjustment. Can it be that 4 is leaking or dribbling? It's a pain to do but if you swap 4 and say 1 around (Including changing the injector coding to suit) you will see if the same injector behaviour transfers to #1. Are these new injectors or refurbished?

 

[Blind_Spark]

I have attached injector Adaption codes.

They had the code printed in the caps as did the old ones I removed. Yes installed 1cambelt end and 4 gearbox end good idea to clarify that.

Ok good shout, I'll see if the garage can check the timing.

Injectors were brand new.

 

[Nam600]

Is that the injector codes? Ross-Tech states this should be a 7 digit code using letters and numbers:
The IMA-ISA values need to be adapted when:

• One or more injection valves have been replaced. Make sure not to adjust the valves which have not been changed!
• The engine control module has been replaced.
• Do NOT adapt these values when you did not replace one of the above parts, also not for training or demonstration purposes.

The adjustment code can be found on the injector itself, it is a 7-digit value and does only use the following chars: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,K,L,M,N,O,P,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z. A value of AAAAAAA is also not valid.

Click on thumbnail image to enlarge.

Prerequisites:

• Ignition ON
• Engine OFF

[Select]
[01 - Engine]

[Adaptation - 10]
Channel 071: IMA-ISA Value for Cylinder 1 -or- IDE00263 Injector 1 correction value
Channel 072: IMA-ISA Value for Cylinder 2 -or- IDE00264 Injector 2 correction value
Channel 073: IMA-ISA Value for Cylinder 3 -or- IDE00265 Injector 3 correction value
Channel 074: IMA-ISA Value for Cylinder 4 -or- IDE00266 Injector 4 correction value
Enter the actual values from each fuel injector as needed.
[Test]
[Save]
[Done, Go Back]