102PS with 2 Turbo Failures - was re-map to blame?
- Thread starter Stevo468
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Do you honestly believe the stock remap is likely to be the issue? that has probably been installed to loads and loads of vans previous,
and it then caused an immediate catastrophic failure?
But I'm not ruling out the wrong map could have in error been installed, just very unlikely to cause this mode of failure.
Stock remap ? Stock means standard just to point out so a remap is not stock. No I’ve not said that, I’m pointing out that the vehicle has been altered from manufacture spec so it is a get out, this is not a blame game at the end of the day, you can’t put ten litres of water in 5 litre bucket and expect it not to spill
So "stock remap" is not a dynamic remap carried out on a rolling road, or a live remap gathering and adjusting map data, etc whilst driving the vehicle.
A "stock remap" has been pre-designed for that engine type; just as the original map has been.
I would guess most remaps are "stock", that's not to say health checks aren't carried out also
But surely any garage has a "duty of care" or "due diligence" to ensure that that there is an oil supply to the turbo etc etc etc before it leaves the garage; particularly if you are replacing a failed turbo that can leave muck and junk all over.
I completely agree... and I should have added that walking out with the annotated invoice was the killer. Legal isn’t the route to take at this stage, for sure
Muck removal and ensuring all was “good to go” is the crux of the issue
That's a really good point,
And I'm afraid, previously, in my haste, I've done just the same;
And repented at my leisure; "why the hell did I let that p***k anywhere near my van"
But that's not to blame the garage at this point, as the mode of failure is unknown at present.
But their unwillingness to help and support their customer post-failure is very disappointing and unprofessional. and makes many of us suspicious.
But their unwillingness to help and support their customer post-failure is very disappointing and unprofessional. and makes many of us suspicious.
OK chaps all good thoughts.
More info: When the original turbo was identified as failed the exhaust turbine was seized solid in its housing, which is an integral part of the exhaust manifold casting. The compressor turbine was found floppy in its housing confirming the main spindle had sheared after the exhaust turbine seized. Oil had then been ingested in to the inlet tract saturating the air filter and getting all over the guts of the mass flow meter etc and all other elements of the inlet tract. Then the oil went through the engine and contaminated the DPF and exhaus systemt.
The mechanic changed the turbo for an OEM unit, air filter, changed the oil and oil filter and cleaned the DPF and inlet tract. I insisted only VW parts were used and they gave me all the purchase orders to prove it.
He did not change the oil feed pipe or check oil feed pressure - which I know would be difficult to do - which is a concern given what I know now.
The replacement turbo was definitely a new VW unit.
I insisted they give me the original failed turbo unit just in case a failure investigation was needed.
The garage charged me £2200 for the whole job.
When the new turbo failed in less than 2 miles, the van was low loaded back to the garage. The mechanics looked in to the inlet tract and confirmed oil everywhere and there was no oil showing on the dip stick. There was no oil dripping underneath - I presume it was sucked through again when the turbo failed - confirmed IMO when a massive cloud of white smoke came out the exhaust when the turbo failed.
The mechanic took the inlet hose off the compressor outlet of the turbo and found the retaining nut had come off and that the compressor turbine was floating around inside its housing. I suspect the spindle has sheared again, probably due to the rotation inertia of the nut at the point of failure. At this point they stopped working on it and told me it was out of their hands and that I would have to take it up with the turbo supplier (VW) to find out if the second turbo was faulty. But they said in their opinion both failures were a direct result of the mapping - in their opinion??? I'm feeling the remap is a convenient red herring and that there is a more fundamental problem.
I must say I have always been very sceptical about re-mapping claims, but there seems to be a whole industry out there providing this service without too much of a problem. I only used Quantum because the chap who did the work came highly recommended and as the van was 3 1/2 years old I thought I'd give it a go. Irronically I would have been happy with a supposed 140ps map. I'd always thought it was bit gutless and wasn't quite ready to sign yet another PCP deal during COVID year.... This has clearly bitten me on the butt.
I feel like I may be staring down the barrel of the best part of £8k to get it fixed.... And with no confindence it will be reliable in the future . VW quoted £5500 first time around. I daren't risk the a non specialist garage again....
I will be talking to Quantum directly. They have said, via the re-map guy that the re-map only increases max boost pressure by 0.1 bar (1.45 psi) - Now there is no way on earth you can get an additional 70ps from only 0.1bar.... That is plain nonsense. So, so far nothing is adding up....
Any more toughts?
More info: When the original turbo was identified as failed the exhaust turbine was seized solid in its housing, which is an integral part of the exhaust manifold casting. The compressor turbine was found floppy in its housing confirming the main spindle had sheared after the exhaust turbine seized. Oil had then been ingested in to the inlet tract saturating the air filter and getting all over the guts of the mass flow meter etc and all other elements of the inlet tract. Then the oil went through the engine and contaminated the DPF and exhaus systemt.
The mechanic changed the turbo for an OEM unit, air filter, changed the oil and oil filter and cleaned the DPF and inlet tract. I insisted only VW parts were used and they gave me all the purchase orders to prove it.
He did not change the oil feed pipe or check oil feed pressure - which I know would be difficult to do - which is a concern given what I know now.
The replacement turbo was definitely a new VW unit.
I insisted they give me the original failed turbo unit just in case a failure investigation was needed.
The garage charged me £2200 for the whole job.
When the new turbo failed in less than 2 miles, the van was low loaded back to the garage. The mechanics looked in to the inlet tract and confirmed oil everywhere and there was no oil showing on the dip stick. There was no oil dripping underneath - I presume it was sucked through again when the turbo failed - confirmed IMO when a massive cloud of white smoke came out the exhaust when the turbo failed.
The mechanic took the inlet hose off the compressor outlet of the turbo and found the retaining nut had come off and that the compressor turbine was floating around inside its housing. I suspect the spindle has sheared again, probably due to the rotation inertia of the nut at the point of failure. At this point they stopped working on it and told me it was out of their hands and that I would have to take it up with the turbo supplier (VW) to find out if the second turbo was faulty. But they said in their opinion both failures were a direct result of the mapping - in their opinion??? I'm feeling the remap is a convenient red herring and that there is a more fundamental problem.
I must say I have always been very sceptical about re-mapping claims, but there seems to be a whole industry out there providing this service without too much of a problem. I only used Quantum because the chap who did the work came highly recommended and as the van was 3 1/2 years old I thought I'd give it a go. Irronically I would have been happy with a supposed 140ps map. I'd always thought it was bit gutless and wasn't quite ready to sign yet another PCP deal during COVID year.... This has clearly bitten me on the butt.
I feel like I may be staring down the barrel of the best part of £8k to get it fixed.... And with no confindence it will be reliable in the future . VW quoted £5500 first time around. I daren't risk the a non specialist garage again....
I will be talking to Quantum directly. They have said, via the re-map guy that the re-map only increases max boost pressure by 0.1 bar (1.45 psi) - Now there is no way on earth you can get an additional 70ps from only 0.1bar.... That is plain nonsense. So, so far nothing is adding up....
Any more toughts?
I think you've got some very worthwhile info to have a good, hopefully, productive chat with Quantum to start with.
Yes I’ve seen similar before where an impeller nut came off and a new turbo was fitted and the old nut went through the new turbo, I suspect this could have happened I would suggest it’s been down to debris or improper cleaning at no time have I said a remap would kill components that quick but they add to wear, just poor quality workmanship and showing true colours cause they have a get out plan in regard to the remap, but unless you understand engines you won’t understand the lubrication needed if your original turbo was that screwed it would have been seizing over time and burning and carbonising the oil which breaks down the oil might as well have sand in it, oil pressure is easy to check on these engines, you’ll prob find you have other bearing surface damage also
Starting to make sense - which is why the remap didn't result in a really noticeable improvement in performance - the turbo wasn't spinning freely, so boost pressure would have been down.
OP, as you and others have suggested, it sounds like oil feed problem to the turbo. There's no other reasonable explanation (apart from unlikely faulty new part)for the new unit to fail within just a few minutes of operation. It's not difficult, as you suggest above, to check this when the engine is in bits and the turbo off, who told you this ?!. Crank the engine over on the starter and see if there's oil flow from the feed pipe, likewise blow compressed air (gently) into the return to make sure not blocked. If the thing runs with no pipe on ever, better, you'll gauge the oil flow too.
To lose a sump full of oil too, within just a few miles, that's very odd, and would be at odds with the oil starvation theory though....
You'd never overstress a turbo to the point of self destruction on a VW2.0Tdi with a regular drive away in just a few minutes. If it was overboosting to the max, I think you'd more likely get a EML light or pop a hose off first. The former depending on how Quantum have coded the map and limits however.
ETA - Just seen your comment on Quantum's boost claims. Most of these remaps work due to increasing the fuelling - just like the plug in tuning boxes of old that fiddled the rail pressure. There's not huge gains in loads more boost without introducing drivability issues on motors like this, so they do tend to work on just more fuel. Diesels don't work on a fixed or tight air/fuel ratio like petrol engines, but run on anywhere between something like 15-100:1.
I feel sorry for your plight OP, which ever ways you cut it, I think you're in for a long slog to resolution...
To lose a sump full of oil too, within just a few miles, that's very odd, and would be at odds with the oil starvation theory though....
You'd never overstress a turbo to the point of self destruction on a VW2.0Tdi with a regular drive away in just a few minutes. If it was overboosting to the max, I think you'd more likely get a EML light or pop a hose off first. The former depending on how Quantum have coded the map and limits however.
ETA - Just seen your comment on Quantum's boost claims. Most of these remaps work due to increasing the fuelling - just like the plug in tuning boxes of old that fiddled the rail pressure. There's not huge gains in loads more boost without introducing drivability issues on motors like this, so they do tend to work on just more fuel. Diesels don't work on a fixed or tight air/fuel ratio like petrol engines, but run on anywhere between something like 15-100:1.
I feel sorry for your plight OP, which ever ways you cut it, I think you're in for a long slog to resolution...
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I agree - looks like a long slog aheadOP, as you and others have suggested, it sounds like oil feed problem to the turbo. There's no other reasonable explanation (apart from unlikely faulty new part)for the new unit to fail within just a few minutes of operation. It's not difficult to check this when the engine is in bits and the turbo off. Crank the engine over on the starter and see if there's oil flow from the feed pipe, likewise blow compressed air (gently) into the return to make sure not blocked.
To lose a sump full of oil too, within just a few miles, that's very odd, and would be at odds with the oil starvation theory though....
You'd never overstress a turbo to the point of self destruction on a VW2.0Tdi with a regular drive away in just a few minutes. If it was overboosting to the max, I think you'd more likely get a EML light or pop a hose off first. The former depending on how Quantum have coded the map and limits however.
I feel sorry for your plight OP, which ever ways you cut it, I think you're in for a long slog to resolution...
Or oil drain, there is no oil feed without flow and bearing debris is likely to be pushed into the drain not the feed. Both need a thorough check along with the entire induction system.OP, as you and others have suggested, it sounds like oil feed problem to the turbo. There's no other reasonable explanation (apart from unlikely faulty new part)for the new unit to fail within just a few minutes of operation. It's not difficult, as you suggest above, to check this when the engine is in bits and the turbo off, who told you this ?!. Crank the engine over on the starter and see if there's oil flow from the feed pipe, likewise blow compressed air (gently) into the return to make sure not blocked. If the thing runs with no pipe on ever, better, you'll gauge the oil flow too.
To lose a sump full of oil too, within just a few miles, that's very odd, and would be at odds with the oil starvation theory though....
You'd never overstress a turbo to the point of self destruction on a VW2.0Tdi with a regular drive away in just a few minutes. If it was overboosting to the max, I think you'd more likely get a EML light or pop a hose off first. The former depending on how Quantum have coded the map and limits however.
ETA - Just seen your comment on Quantum's boost claims. Most of these remaps work due to increasing the fuelling - just like the plug in tuning boxes of old that fiddled the rail pressure. There's not huge gains in loads more boost without introducing drivability issues on motors like this, so they do tend to work on just more fuel. Diesels don't work on a fixed or tight air/fuel ratio like petrol engines, but run on anywhere between something like 15-100:1.
I feel sorry for your plight OP, which ever ways you cut it, I think you're in for a long slog to resolution...
I’ll add my two pennies worth; Mechanics are terrible at leaving open ended orifices, pipes, hoses etc creating the hazard of debris entering a previously clean component. When I did my apprenticeship with the MOD as mechanical fitter / turner this was hammered home with some force. Over the years I have seen the result of such contamination, many minor and a few multi million $ disasters.
The fact they would fit an expensive item which can do catastrophic damage to an engine and not change the Feed/ return oil lines?? They were difficult to change maybe but do it right once. On removing the oil pipes did any carbon deposits get lodged and straight into the new turbo on start-up?? My guess is its a strong possibility. A lot of turbo failures ( in such a short time) are usually to fitting errors.
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