No, ?
what does it say.
Can you post a pic of it?
what does it say.
Can you post a pic of it?
no pic as the letter was emailed to me.
but this is part of the letter:
With regard to this vehicle, we as the seller would like to inform you of the following based on the information provided to us by Volkswagen AG:
Based on industry‐wide standards, all manufacturers’ diesel vehicles that are currently available for purchase have what is known as a “thermal window”. This is a function in which the exhaust gas recirculation rate is gradually reduced or shut down completely outside a certain temperature range for reasons of engine protection. This therefore also applies to the vehicle you are interested in buying.
For some time now, there has been a discussion about the legality of thermal windows in diesel vehicles. According to the administrative practice of the European type‐approval authorities, including the German Federal Motor Transport Authority, thermal windows are legal if they serve to protect against sudden, unforeseeable damage to the vehicle’s engine and to ensure the safe operation of the vehicle.
Volkswagen AG is convinced that the thermal window installed in the vehicle in which you are interested serves to prevent sudden, unforeseeable damage to the vehicle’s engine and to ensure the safe operation of the vehicle. This statement is based on engineering expertise.
On 14 July 2022, the European Court of Justice issued three new judgments, in which it supplemented previous European case law. According to these new judgments, thermal windows can still constitute a prohibited defeat device under certain conditions when they serve to protect the engine. This applies even if the responsible type‐approval authority had tested and approved the relevant thermal window according to the specifications valid until then. Of course, following Brexit, the judgments of the European Court of Justice no longer automatically apply across the whole of the UK.
That is why we would like to inform our customers before buying vehicles with potentially comparable thermal windows:
Against the backdrop of this new development in European case law, it cannot be completely ruled out that authorities and courts could in future assess the specific design of certain thermal windows to be prohibited. This also cannot be ruled out for the thermal window installed in the vehicle you are interested in buying. If this happens, it also cannot be ruled out with certainty that the manufacturer could issue recalls or that the authorities may order recalls or other measures to be carried out, including to vehicle owners. This could even in a very unlikely scenario include the withdrawal of the vehicle registration or a prohibition of use directed against the vehicle owner. In such cases, potential impacts on the resale value of the vehicles cannot be ruled out, although this happening is very unlikely.
In the event that a certain kind of thermal window is classified as prohibited in the future, with the result that recalls are issued, Volkswagen AG will develop suitable technical solutions and make them available to you free of charge, or provide other remedies.
Thank you for your understanding.
but this is part of the letter:
With regard to this vehicle, we as the seller would like to inform you of the following based on the information provided to us by Volkswagen AG:
Based on industry‐wide standards, all manufacturers’ diesel vehicles that are currently available for purchase have what is known as a “thermal window”. This is a function in which the exhaust gas recirculation rate is gradually reduced or shut down completely outside a certain temperature range for reasons of engine protection. This therefore also applies to the vehicle you are interested in buying.
For some time now, there has been a discussion about the legality of thermal windows in diesel vehicles. According to the administrative practice of the European type‐approval authorities, including the German Federal Motor Transport Authority, thermal windows are legal if they serve to protect against sudden, unforeseeable damage to the vehicle’s engine and to ensure the safe operation of the vehicle.
Volkswagen AG is convinced that the thermal window installed in the vehicle in which you are interested serves to prevent sudden, unforeseeable damage to the vehicle’s engine and to ensure the safe operation of the vehicle. This statement is based on engineering expertise.
On 14 July 2022, the European Court of Justice issued three new judgments, in which it supplemented previous European case law. According to these new judgments, thermal windows can still constitute a prohibited defeat device under certain conditions when they serve to protect the engine. This applies even if the responsible type‐approval authority had tested and approved the relevant thermal window according to the specifications valid until then. Of course, following Brexit, the judgments of the European Court of Justice no longer automatically apply across the whole of the UK.
That is why we would like to inform our customers before buying vehicles with potentially comparable thermal windows:
Against the backdrop of this new development in European case law, it cannot be completely ruled out that authorities and courts could in future assess the specific design of certain thermal windows to be prohibited. This also cannot be ruled out for the thermal window installed in the vehicle you are interested in buying. If this happens, it also cannot be ruled out with certainty that the manufacturer could issue recalls or that the authorities may order recalls or other measures to be carried out, including to vehicle owners. This could even in a very unlikely scenario include the withdrawal of the vehicle registration or a prohibition of use directed against the vehicle owner. In such cases, potential impacts on the resale value of the vehicles cannot be ruled out, although this happening is very unlikely.
In the event that a certain kind of thermal window is classified as prohibited in the future, with the result that recalls are issued, Volkswagen AG will develop suitable technical solutions and make them available to you free of charge, or provide other remedies.
Thank you for your understanding.
Sounds like a load of solicitors waffle about EGR and Diesel gate blah blah blah.
And possible email to maybe say if you buy the van don't take them straight to EU law court.
Not seen that letter personally,... Are they trying to sell you something?
Put you off something?
Did It come from a vw main dealer?
And possible email to maybe say if you buy the van don't take them straight to EU law court.
Not seen that letter personally,... Are they trying to sell you something?
Put you off something?
Did It come from a vw main dealer?
It doesn’t look like they are trying to sell you anything. Just make you aware that at some point there is a chance VW could be found to have cheated emissions regs (again) and if that happens they would likely, if ruled against, sort you out an update as part of a future recall.
There is a warning (worst case scenario) about how affected vehicles could be classified as unroadworthy - highly unlikely, apparently, but they need to make you fully aware of all risks.
I wouldn’t worry about it personally.
There is a warning (worst case scenario) about how affected vehicles could be classified as unroadworthy - highly unlikely, apparently, but they need to make you fully aware of all risks.
I wouldn’t worry about it personally.
The whole letter is in the past tense, as if I haven't bought the van, and to me reads that its a disclaimer.
Information was given to me by the seller [it wasn't]
Im submitting my knowledge of buying the vehicle with said information [I wasn't]
I agree to any technical measure carried out should they be made available by VW AG
Of course nothing could come of this new ruling, but it's concerning that the letter isn't dated, and to me there's a probability it will be backdated as if I was was aware at the time
Information was given to me by the seller [it wasn't]
Im submitting my knowledge of buying the vehicle with said information [I wasn't]
I agree to any technical measure carried out should they be made available by VW AG
Of course nothing could come of this new ruling, but it's concerning that the letter isn't dated, and to me there's a probability it will be backdated as if I was was aware at the time
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Starwarsnosebleed
New Member
Just had this same email a couple days ago. Unsure wether to sign or not.
As you say, its worded as if i was informed before the agreement to buy the van, which i was not.
As you say, its worded as if i was informed before the agreement to buy the van, which i was not.
thats exactly it, I wasn't told either, so I did not sign.
To my mind I felt it was fraudulent if I did sign.
I also had an email 2 days later informing they wanted me to sign within the next 2 days as it had to be forwarded onto VW. I declined saying I needed more time to check it out before signing.
Never sign anything you’re not happy with.
That was drummed into me when I worked as a site engineer but it’s a good lesson for life in general.
I remember seeing in the news a few years back that Game changed their online order terms and conditions one April Fools Day - to say something like you’re handing your first born over to them if you tick the ‘accept T&Cs’ box when ordering. They said almost everyone ticked it! They used it as a bit of promo obviously but also to get over the point that people need to read what they are signing for and not sign it if they don’t agree.
I am late to the thread, but would not be signing/returning such a letter after a deal had concluded.
Always worth asking "what's in it for me?".
I am a natural cynic when it comes to contracts and intent - and to me it reads as if the Dealers in particular are looking to mitigate their potential liabilities - because if you 'knowingly' assume the (unknown) risk, then your rights are going to be diminished down the line.
Whether a letter was signed or not, then hypothetically a recall process would kick in regardless; which you may - or may not - wish to take advantage of at the time. (e.g. some widely reported driveability issues post-dieselgate ECU updates for VAG passenger vehicles.)
Like I say, I am a cynic about such things, as I see too many contracts in the day job.
Also, the post from @Lubrown reminded me of a set of Amazon Terms that amused me and which have been up for a while - complete with a 'Zombie Apocalypse' clause!
Screenshot below, but at the time of writing the Terms containing the 'Zombie' clause are still live at the following link...
aws.amazon.com
Always worth asking "what's in it for me?".
I am a natural cynic when it comes to contracts and intent - and to me it reads as if the Dealers in particular are looking to mitigate their potential liabilities - because if you 'knowingly' assume the (unknown) risk, then your rights are going to be diminished down the line.
Whether a letter was signed or not, then hypothetically a recall process would kick in regardless; which you may - or may not - wish to take advantage of at the time. (e.g. some widely reported driveability issues post-dieselgate ECU updates for VAG passenger vehicles.)
Like I say, I am a cynic about such things, as I see too many contracts in the day job.
Also, the post from @Lubrown reminded me of a set of Amazon Terms that amused me and which have been up for a while - complete with a 'Zombie Apocalypse' clause!
Screenshot below, but at the time of writing the Terms containing the 'Zombie' clause are still live at the following link...
AWS Service Terms
Daimler welcomes BGH ruling regarding so-called thermal windows | Mercedes-Benz Group
In its ruling of 19 January 2021, the German Federal Court of Justice (Bundesgerichtshof/BGH) commented for the first time on the temperature-dependent control of the exhaust gas recirculation system (so-called “thermal window”) in a Mercedes-Benz vehicle. The ruling confirms Daimler’s legal...
.. and then there are the U.K. law firms trying to ride the dieselgate scandal for all it's worth.
European Court ruling strengthens UK dieselgate emissions claims | LawNews.co.uk
Lawyers who represent over 150,000 drivers in diesel emissions claims say the European Court ruling strengthens their claim that their vehicles are affected by defeat devices that significantly increase NOx emissions. The European Court of Justice (CJEU) ruled in a series of three linked...
www.lawnews.co.uk
I would say that the letter is an attempt by VW to limit the number of court cases they have to fight and asking customers to be aware that due to the court rulings, what was legal yesterday may not be legal tomorrow ... they can't predict which way the courts will rule, but will provide SW updates free of charge if they rule against VW.
Thermal Windows, the current target of litigation, is the use of EGR strategies which are dependent on temperature (which makes sense as you need certain engine conditions to make EGR effective). The previous "defeat device" from the dieselgate scandal detected an emissions cycle and behaved differently, clearly a violation ... the current arguments centre around temperature control of EGR, which is completely different, and the court ruling centres around average operating temperatures in Europe (the real world) .. which are different to the temperatures encountered during emissions testing. I personally don't think temperature controlled EGR is a defeat device in the same sense as the previous dieselgate issue, but lawyers aren't engineers, so who knows which way it will fall. One thing is for certain, all this is making cars more expensive for everyone.
Coly
Member
In January i took my 2016 T6 for a MOT and full service at the local main Volkswagen dealer Yeoman's of Exeter
While there they did a software upgrade which I later was told " was to optimise the temperature-related control of the emissions regulation".
After the service and upgrade the fuel consumption had increased by about 15% and the engine seemed to be running hotter.
After a lot of emails to Yeoman's service supervisor I was advised to contact Volkswagen customer service.
A lot of emails followed and they did a 'thorough investigation ' and concluded that the only difference I should notice is an increase in the use of AdBlue.
They said I could book it in for a diagnostic, at my expense, in April.
My T6 does not use any AdBlue. So much for a thorough investigation.
It sounds like it is to correct the EGR Thermal Window.
My advice is if your Volkswagen is running good stay away from the Main Dealers.
Does this make sense?
While there they did a software upgrade which I later was told " was to optimise the temperature-related control of the emissions regulation".
After the service and upgrade the fuel consumption had increased by about 15% and the engine seemed to be running hotter.
After a lot of emails to Yeoman's service supervisor I was advised to contact Volkswagen customer service.
A lot of emails followed and they did a 'thorough investigation ' and concluded that the only difference I should notice is an increase in the use of AdBlue.
They said I could book it in for a diagnostic, at my expense, in April.
My T6 does not use any AdBlue. So much for a thorough investigation.
It sounds like it is to correct the EGR Thermal Window.
My advice is if your Volkswagen is running good stay away from the Main Dealers.
Does this make sense?
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