Leisure battery failed?

[PJ134]

Hi all
So we have had our van for 3 months now and the leisure battery seemed to be working okay on our first trip with it in August. A 3 day trip with the leisure battery with solar allowed us fridge, water pump and a bit of lighting without EHU. All was good. However, during a late September trip, the on board display showed a battery low alert 10.4v around an hour after pitching up (dusk). So I switched the fridge off for the night. Solar kicked in in the morning and the alert went off, but by lunchtime another alert saying voltage too high at something like 14.?v, can’t remember exactly. I reckon the battery is dead but I’m wondering if it might be something we have done, or just bad luck on our part. Reason I say is that our setup has the controls inside cupboards which are easily knocked if using them for storage, see pictures.



Van is a T6.1, 3 years old, converted from new by Revolution campers, so LB will be similar age and it’s a Multicell brand 100ah battery.
Thinking of upgrading to a LiFePO4 so no great loss if the battery is goosed, but I’d rather know that it’s the battery at fault rather than the system in case the LiFePO4 gets damaged.
Graph shows Bm2 reading from last couple of days, showing steep drop from solar input 28-29th, sharp rise mid 29th from solar and a drop heading to evening, both sunny ish days. Last rise is my NoCo genius 5 as it’s a grey day today.

Thanks in advance

 

[ginkster]

It will be a knackered battery given that it’s 3 years old and been down at 10v. Lifepo4 is a game changer and reasonably priced now, but you will need to check that your chargers, wiring and fusing are suitable for lithium batteries. It looks like the Sterling charger doesn’t have a lithium profile. There is a load of info on here from people who have done the upgrade or start a separate thread detailing your system and plans and the T6 massive will undoubtedly give guidance.

 

[PJ134]

It will be a knackered battery given that it’s 3 years old and been down at 10v. Lifepo4 is a game changer and reasonably priced now, but you will need to check that your chargers, wiring and fusing are suitable for lithium batteries. It looks like the Sterling charger doesn’t have a lithium profile. There is a load of info on here from people who have done the upgrade or start a separate thread detailing your system and plans and the T6 massive will undoubtedly give guidance.

Yeah, I’m sure the battery is kaput, but do you reckon it’s just bad luck or like I said, something we did by putting stuff in the cupboards which inadvertently pressed some buttons and may have affected the settings? The MPPT in particular is bang in the middle, obviously put there for the converters convenience rather than ours.
The Sterling charger has LiFePO4 on the top left of the unit so I assumed it would be okay.
Thanks.

 

[ginkster]

Yeah, I’m sure the battery is kaput, but do you reckon it’s just bad luck or like I said, something we did by putting stuff in the cupboards which inadvertently pressed some buttons and may have affected the settings? The MPPT in particular is bang in the middle, obviously put there for the converters convenience rather than ours.
The Sterling charger has LiFePO4 on the top left of the unit so I assumed it would be okay.
Thanks.

Difficult to say for sure but it’s unlikely the MPPT would cause the issue. Most likely it’s been drained too much (<12v) on one or more occasions which will damage the battery. Maybe something got accidentally turned on in the cupboard. Even without that 3 years is about the expected life span so reduced performance could be expected anyhow at this stage.

Good news about the Sterling having a lifepo4 profile. I hadn’t spotted that on the pic.

 

[PJ134]

Difficult to say for sure but it’s unlikely the MPPT would cause the issue. Most likely it’s been drained too much (<12v) on one or more occasions which will damage the battery. Maybe something got accidentally turned on in the cupboard. Even without that 3 years is about the expected life span so reduced performance could be expected anyhow at this stage.

Good news about the Sterling having a lifepo4 profile. I hadn’t spotted that on the pic.

Okay so acquiring a LiFePO4 with low temp protection is the next step. Been looking at the Renogy 100ah or the Fogstar 105ah offerings and tempted with the Fogstar 230ah but I think that’s too tall as it will live under the driver seat. Perhaps even 2 of the same lower ah ones in parallel.
So assuming the Sterling DC-DC is suitable and I already have the MPPT and panels, what else should I be checking before installing a LiFePO4? Is it just a matter of getting the correct post connectors, or more complicated than that?
Cheers

 

[ginkster]

I’ve got the Fogstar 105ah and have been very happy with it. The 230ah seat base version is designed to go under the drivers seat so should fit unless you have something else under there or a swivel base that limits height. Think carefully how much power you actually need as you will get nearly twice the usable power from the same capacity lifepo4 vs LA, AGM etc. I’d say you only need the 230ah if you are running an inverter regularly or need to be off-grid for over a week with no other charging and standard 12v usage such as fridge, lights, diesel heater, usb chargers etc. My 105 will run essentially indefinitely with the 12v use listed above, 200w solar and no other charging. I don’t use an inverter.

You will need to check the cabling is capable of taking the amperage of the new batteries and the cables are fused correctly. Don’t assume the cables/fuses are already ok as there are some shocking so called professional installs about that are frankly dangerous. I would recommend having a look at nohma.com as they have some excellent information on system design, cabling, fusing etc. They also have guidance on doing a power audit which will help you chose the right capacity battery and ensure your chargers are sufficient.

 

[PJ134]

I’ve got the Fogstar 105ah and have been very happy with it. The 230ah seat base version is designed to go under the drivers seat so should fit unless you have something else under there or a swivel base that limits height. Think carefully how much power you actually need as you will get nearly twice the usable power from the same capacity lifepo4 vs LA, AGM etc. I’d say you only need the 230ah if you are running an inverter regularly or need to be off-grid for over a week with no other charging and standard 12v usage such as fridge, lights, diesel heater, usb chargers etc. My 105 will run essentially indefinitely with the 12v use listed above, 200w solar and no other charging. I don’t use an inverter.

You will need to check the cabling is capable of taking the amperage of the new batteries and the cables are fused correctly. Don’t assume the cables/fuses are already ok as there are some shocking so called professional installs about that are frankly dangerous. I would recommend having a look at nohma.com as they have some excellent information on system design, cabling, fusing etc. They also have guidance on doing a power audit which will help you chose the right capacity battery and ensure your chargers are sufficient.

Drivers seat has swivel base, so as you say, I’m limited for height. Currently we only have fridge, diesel heater, water pump, led lights and some usbs running on the leisure. But we are considering an inverter (or portable power box might be a better choice) to run an induction hob when not on EHU because we don’t have gas, other than a portable stove. This is why I’m thinking of the bigger capacity LiFePO4.
I’d read on a different thread that someone else had issues with the wiring on their Revolution conversion which is concerning me a bit now you said that about some installations.
There is loads written about this on here but I must confess, I’m getting a bit confused as to how I proceed. The more I read, the more unsure I become.
I’ll have a look at nohma and see if I can understand any of it
Thanks for your help

 

[ginkster]

All makes sense. Without the induction hob a 105ah would do you fine by the sound of it (same use as me). That would fit under your seat and keep the wiring, fusing and charging requirements lower and more likely compatible with what you have. Using a power pack for a portable induction hob would give flexibility and allow you to move it outside or to another van in the future, but would cost more overall.

Once you’ve had a think I’d recommend putting loads of pictures up of your current setup including all the batteries, connections, fuses, cables, chargers etc so we can see what you’ve got. If you can draw a simple diagram of the current setup that would really help too. The cables may well have their size stamped on them. The biggest issues are normally under sized cables and fuses (or lack of fuses!) and inappropriate chargers.

TFor info the pic below shows my 105ah under the passenger seat which also has a swivel.



This diagram is a good guide to cable requirements based on amperage and cable length (aim for the <3% voltage drop). Fuses are always less than the cable rating but more than the draw (e.g. 170a cable, 100a draw, use a 120 or 150a fuse) to protect the cable from short circuits but avoid false trips. The fuse is placed at the battery end of the cable as it is protecting the cable from a battery short.

 

[Green Giant]

Have a look at the Roamer 160 ah battery, it fits under a swivel seat, on its side and gives plenty of room for other components, I have the Renogy 1000w inverter next to my 160 Roamer

 

[PJ134]

All makes sense. Without the induction hob a 105ah would do you fine by the sound of it (same use as me). That would fit under your seat and keep the wiring, fusing and charging requirements lower and more likely compatible with what you have. Using a power pack for a portable induction hob would give flexibility and allow you to move it outside or to another van in the future, but would cost more overall.

Once you’ve had a think I’d recommend putting loads of pictures up of your current setup including all the batteries, connections, fuses, cables, chargers etc so we can see what you’ve got. If you can draw a simple diagram of the current setup that would really help too. The cables may well have their size stamped on them. The biggest issues are normally under sized cables and fuses (or lack of fuses!) and inappropriate chargers.

TFor info the pic below shows my 105ah under the passenger seat which also has a swivel.

View attachment 264212

This diagram is a good guide to cable requirements based on amperage and cable length (aim for the <3% voltage drop). Fuses are always less than the cable rating but more than the draw (e.g. 170a cable, 100a draw, use a 120 or 150a fuse) to protect the cable from short circuits but avoid false trips. The fuse is placed at the battery end of the cable as it is protecting the cable from a battery short.

View attachment 264215

Thanks @ginkster, I’ll have a look tomorrow and post some pictures.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Drivers seat has swivel base, so as you say, I’m limited for height. Currently we only have fridge, diesel heater, water pump, led lights and some usbs running on the leisure. But we are considering an inverter (or portable power box might be a better choice) to run an induction hob when not on EHU because we don’t have gas, other than a portable stove. This is why I’m thinking of the bigger capacity LiFePO4.
I’d read on a different thread that someone else had issues with the wiring on their Revolution conversion which is concerning me a bit now you said that about some installations.
There is loads written about this on here but I must confess, I’m getting a bit confused as to how I proceed. The more I read, the more unsure I become.
I’ll have a look at nohma and see if I can understand any of it
Thanks for your help

Forget the portable power pack & induction hob & use the portable gas hob. cheaper, easier, more flexible, much more space efficient. We keep saying this ad-nauseum, cooking on 12V is delusional impractical in a small camper.

 

[ginkster]

Forget the portable power pack & induction hob & use the portable gas hob. cheaper, easier, more flexible, much more space efficient. We keep saying this ad-nauseum, cooking on 12V is delusional impractical in a small camper.

Yep, agree with that hence not recommending big batteries and designing a fixed system just to cope with the induction hob. Least a power pack and portable hob can come later if needed, taken outside in nice weather, moved to another van or sold when not used because it’s impractical/inefficient. In my opinion it’s difficult to beat a 2 burner Cadac. Cheap(ish), efficient and flexible. An external gas connector on the van would be great though.

 

[PJ134]

Yeah, totally agree about cooking in the van, it’s something we haven’t done since stinking our T25 out when we did bacon in it many moons ago. Idea was to have the capacity to run a portable induction hob from the van via extension cable outside when not using EHU. But probably as you guys say, more practical and probably much cheaper option is a small gas stove.
Anyway, as my existing leisure battery has failed, I think I should upgrade to a LiFePO4 and I’m going to go for the same one as you @ginkster, Fogstar 105ah.
I’ve took the drivers seat off the base and taken a couple of pictures of the wires.


The twin fuse block on the left is for the Webasto heater (20a) and control (1a). The middle left fuse block (30a) seems to power everything except the Webasto. So master control panel which powers the lights and water pump went off as well as the fridge when I disconnected a terminal. The middle right fuse block (30a) and the blade fuse block (15a) on the right didn’t seem to do anything, everything seemed to work still, when I removed the terminal/fuse. So not sure what they do.
The wires themselves are 4.8mm measured next to the yellow crimp, not on the extra sheathing.
So as the plan is to replace the old lead acid 100ah with a new LiFePO4 105ah, do you think that’s okay to do?
Cheers.

 

[ginkster]

Yeah, totally agree about cooking in the van, it’s something we haven’t done since stinking our T25 out when we did bacon in it many moons ago. Idea was to have the capacity to run a portable induction hob from the van via extension cable outside when not using EHU. But probably as you guys say, more practical and probably much cheaper option is a small gas stove.
Anyway, as my existing leisure battery has failed, I think I should upgrade to a LiFePO4 and I’m going to go for the same one as you @ginkster, Fogstar 105ah.
I’ve took the drivers seat off the base and taken a couple of pictures of the wires.
View attachment 264358
View attachment 264357
The twin fuse block on the left is for the Webasto heater (20a) and control (1a). The middle left fuse block (30a) seems to power everything except the Webasto. So master control panel which powers the lights and water pump went off as well as the fridge when I disconnected a terminal. The middle right fuse block (30a) and the blade fuse block (15a) on the right didn’t seem to do anything, everything seemed to work still, when I removed the terminal/fuse. So not sure what they do.
The wires themselves are 4.8mm measured next to the yellow crimp, not on the extra sheathing.
So as the plan is to replace the old lead acid 100ah with a new LiFePO4 105ah, do you think that’s okay to do?
Cheers.

Sounds good. If you can wait a couple of weeks Fogstar have done Black Friday deals in the past and the 105ah will likely be reduced to £299 (it was last year when I bought mine and again earlier this year).

I would assume that the middle right cable is from the DC-DC charger and the right hand 15a one possibly from the MPPT. It’s difficult to tell from outside diameter but the cables sound like they are 6mm2, or possibly 8.5mm2 which have max capacity of 50 and 63A respectively. Assuming the cables do what’s stated above they are technically ok from an amperage point of view, just, but will have higher voltage drop than larger capacity cables. This may or may not cause you issues but if it’s working now you may well be ok. Check the Sterling manual to see what fuses it recommends as 30a is too close to the output of the Sterling (30a if I read it correctly off the photo). I’d also look to tidy up the positive cables and put them all to a busbar (leisure battery side of the fuses) then a single 16mm2 fused (100a) cable from leisure battery to busbar. The other way is a fused busbar such as this from 12voltplanet.

 

[PJ134]

Thanks @ginkster. The Sterling is model no BB1230 12v-12v 30-40A input. Wire size recommended is 6.0mm2/10AWG and nominal fuse size for input and output is 50A.

Wiring definitely needs tidying up and I’ll go with your recommendation of a fused busbar to replace the existing fuse blocks.
Something else I read in the Sterling manual was that negatives should be connected to the starter battery rather than the chassis ground. Originally they were connected to the starter battery negative, but reading on here suggested that they should be put to ground because of the shunt. So I did move them over to ground but I’m wondering if by doing that may have not been good for the LB? Might move them back, what do you think?

The Fogstar 105 is £299 right now from several places but I might wait for any BF deals.
Cheers.

 

[ginkster]

Great, that all sounds good with the cables then. I’d use a 40a fuse to give a margin to both the cable capacity and the DC-DC capacity. If you do use the linked fused busbar note the smallest midi fuse you can get is 30a so the 15a blade fuse would have to stay as will the ones for the heater. You can use the mega fuse as the 100a one from the leisure battery as long as you keep the cable from the battery short (<200mm). Use 16mm2 for this - you can get them made to length with a choice of connectors from 12voltplanet or Simplysplitcharge.

I’d keep the negatives to the chassis ground. That’s what I have done with my Victron setup and it works perfectly. The whole vehicle OEM wiring is done like that.

Get the battery now then. I’ve never seen it cheaper than £299 so they must have a sale on now. It’s normally £369.

 

[Bigsidavies]

I've used a couple of these recemtly. Very solid build quality and good terminals. Makes it neat and also easy to disconnect your battery if you ever need to.

12V 300A AMP Heavy Duty DC Power Distribution Positive Bus Bar - 4 X M

Heavy duty positive bus bar suitable for high current applications such as inverters and main 12V power distribution in your camper van. 12V 300A Rating Module design for easy configuration and fitment Removable windows all round Blank space for easy identification Approx dimension 130mm X 69mm...

www.wiredcampers.co.uk

 

[PJ134]

Great, that all sounds good with the cables then. I’d use a 40a fuse to give a margin to both the cable capacity and the DC-DC capacity. If you do use the linked fused busbar note the smallest midi fuse you can get is 30a so the 15a blade fuse would have to stay as will the ones for the heater. You can use the mega fuse as the 100a one from the leisure battery as long as you keep the cable from the battery short (<200mm). Use 16mm2 for this - you can get them made to length with a choice of connectors from 12voltplanet or Simplysplitcharge.

I’d keep the negatives to the chassis ground. That’s what I have done with my Victron setup and it works perfectly. The whole vehicle OEM wiring is done like that.

Get the battery now then. I’ve never seen it cheaper than £299 so they must have a sale on now. It’s normally £369.

By the looks of things, I’ll have to alter the settings myself on the Sterling to get the LiFePO4 profile and, according to the manual, I have to remove the reverse polarity protection due to a BMS protocol conflict. All seems a bit complicated just to swap a battery, to me it does anyway.
Just wanted to say thanks @ginkster for your expertise and advice as I wouldn’t have had a clue without it. I’ll post back here when I’ve sorted it out.
Time to raid the piggy bank.

 

[PJ134]

Well, after some time, I’ve managed to install the new Fogstar 105 all snug under the driver’s seat and tidied up the wiring and installed the Ablemail AMT12-2. I’ve not fully commissioned it yet as I have to set the profile on the Sterling and the profile on the MPPT to LiFePO4.
I thought all was going well but I’ve got the red led once every 10 seconds on the AMT. According to the instructions, that will happen when the VB is less than 11.5v and LB greater than threshold. However, as both batteries are new and fully charged, VB=12.65v and LB 13.78v, I don’t think it’s that.
I did alter the program from default 4 to 3 which is smart alternator (T6.1 with St/St), LB threshold >13.5v, VB threshold >12.4v, and lithium battery. I altered it from 4 because the LB was only >13.0v and lead battery, on that setting.

Any ideas what the problem is? Could it be that the LB is over the 13.5?

Cheers

 

[ginkster]

I’ve just been to check mine and it is also flashing red. My voltages are SB 12.5 and LB 13.2. I know for definite it works when needed as it’s been keeping my SB alive for months. I changed my SB a few days ago and the voltage is higher than the threshold for the AMT to kick in. Why it’s flashing red rather than amber I have no idea!

First I’d check the SB and LB voltages at the AMT end of the cable to make sure you haven’t got a connection or voltage drop issue. If that’s fine then leave your headlights and radio on for a while to drop the SB voltage and see if the AMT kicks in. Don’t run it too low though (12.2v would be fine) and knacker your new SB or leave yourself stranded!