Lithium LiFePo4 in the cold weather

[Green Giant]

The roamer's don't have heaters, do they? But their cold weather versions use a slightly different cell chemistry to allow charging well below zero - clever stuff!

I spoke to Roamer over a year ago asking if they have a heated battery in the pipeline, they said no, we won’t be making an internally heated battery.
He explained that it’s better to have your diesel heater switched on to keep the battery from low temperatures, so just make sure there’s enough juice in the battery to fire up the heater, it sort of makes sense for campervan use, so in my case I brought a 160ah so 100ah to use and 60ah as a reserve.

 

[Dellmassive]

Here's the fogstar.

Freezing cold and blocking any incoming charge. You can see the UTC warning and 0A charge.

With engine running we can see the Orion is delivering 4A charge current.

And the bmv shunt is showing that it's going to the battery ..... Which is running the heater.

So the 4A from the charger is being used by the battery heater matrix....but the BMS is blocking any power getting to the cells.

4A seems to be the standard heater power load.

Though my testing showed the Renogy pulled 8A for the heater..... So maybe it had double heater pads.

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...

 

[TallPaul_S]

Yeah same on mine @Dellmassive - my 230Ah fogstar is down to about 40% at the moment so I've just stuck it on EHU.



15a EHU charger giving 4a or thereabouts



Fogstar at below zero (cells just above)

 

[Dellmassive]

Here's the fogstar.

Freezing cold and blocking any incoming charge. You can see the UTC warning and 0A charge.

With engine running we can see the Orion is delivering 4A charge current.

And the bmv shunt is showing that it's going to the battery ..... Which is running the heater.

So the 4A from the charger is being used by the battery heater matrix....but the BMS is blocking any power getting to the cells.

4A seems to be the standard heater power load.

Though my testing showed the Renogy pulled 8A for the heater..... So maybe it had double heater pads.

.
View attachment 270706View attachment 270707View attachment 270708View attachment 270709




...

30mins later after a trip to ASDA.

Cells temps over 2.6c and normal charging has resumed.

The UTC alarm is gone and the BMX charging block has been removed.

The Orion is now charging at 30 amps which is my normal setting instead of 50.

I could even drop the charging right down to 25 while it's being cold.

....



....

 

[TallPaul_S]

30mins later after a trip to ASDA.

Cells temps over 2.6c and normal charging has resumed.

The UTC alarm is gone and the BMX charging block has been removed.

The Orion is now charging at 30 amps which is my normal setting instead of 50.

I could even drop the charging right down to 25 while it's being cold.

....

View attachment 270718View attachment 270719

....

I was literally about to post the same! Nipped out to Aldi (not in the van) and 28 minutes at 4a until full charge is allowed.


Cells are now at 7 or 8 degrees.




Tbh it's good to know how much power the heater needs, basically 2Ah or so. My solar art this time of year isn't even enough to power the heater!

 

[TallPaul_S]

I spoke to Roamer over a year ago asking if they have a heated battery in the pipeline, they said no, we won’t be making an internally heated battery.
He explained that it’s better to have your diesel heater switched on to keep the battery from low temperatures, so just make sure there’s enough juice in the battery to fire up the heater, it sort of makes sense for campervan use, so in my case I brought a 160ah so 100ah to use and 60ah as a reserve.

Tbh roamers approach makes a lot of sense.

You remove any risk of damage from charging when below zero (with a heater or not), if you're using the van then you'll have the heater on warming the inside so just make sure the battery isn't mounted directly on the cold van floor. Which then leaves only really the few occasions in the UK where you might have a cold van, but be driving somewhere or have a solar input, but aren't actually camping in the van (and using the diesel heater).

And if you need to regularly charge when it's below zero, the extreme range caters for that, right up to artic levels!

 

[Dellmassive]

My use case is:

T6 work van.... Gets frozen solid over the weekend.

Then back to work Monday morning, ready to use the inverter etc to charger stuff.

No diesel heater or solar etc etc...... just a frozen van that has a running engine.

So for my van..... I need a heated battery.


.....




Now the bus on the other hand.... That we use for camping, now that's a different story.

We plan to get a derv heater fitted asap.....

 

[Dellmassive]

My use case is:

T6 work van.... Gets frozen solid over the weekend.

Then back to work Monday morning, ready to use the inverter etc to charger stuff.

No diesel heater or solar etc etc...... just a frozen van that has a running engine.

So for my van..... I need a heated battery.


.....




Now the bus on the other hand.... That we use for camping, now that's a different story.

We plan to get a derv heater fitted asap.....

Here is the context...

Work van....


And day van / camper.

Both very chilly......

....





...

 

[Stay Frosty]

Tbh roamers approach makes a lot of sense.

You remove any risk of damage from charging when below zero (with a heater or not), if you're using the van then you'll have the heater on warming the inside so just make sure the battery isn't mounted directly on the cold van floor. Which then leaves only really the few occasions in the UK where you might have a cold van, but be driving somewhere or have a solar input, but aren't actually camping in the van (and using the diesel heater).

And if you need to regularly charge when it's below zero, the extreme range caters for that, right up to artic levels!

My Roamer seatbase battery is under the driver's seat so about as on the floor as you can get however battery and solar isolators are turned off with battery left at 80 odd percent and not going back on charge for a few weeks/months yet.

 

[Drive Wayne]

My Roamer seatbase battery is under the driver's seat so about as on the floor as you can get however battery and solar isolators are turned off with battery left at 80 odd percent and not going back on charge for a few weeks/months yet.

My 'old' Roamer is on the floor too, under the rear wardrobe at 75%. This week it will get a charge through the B2B and a bit of solar when temps rise. New Roamer S4 going in on Friday...

 

[JumpShip]

Our usage is completely different to most of you in the sense that we use our van more during the winter months than we do in the summer .
Winter we drive through the cold to.get to spain and camp for maybe 6 weeks .
Then we drive back to 'not so' sunny blighty where the van is only used a couple of times a week tops .
So I'm thinking a non heated battery would suit us ?

 

[ginkster]

Our usage is completely different to most of you in the sense that we use our van more during the winter months than we do in the summer .
Winter we drive through the cold to.get to spain and camp for maybe 6 weeks .
Then we drive back to 'not so' sunny blighty where the van is only used a couple of times a week tops .
So I'm thinking a non heated battery would suit us ?

If you never need to charge it below zero then a non heated version is fine. Just make sure it has low temp charge protection and/or you can turn off your chargers to prevent accidental charging (e.g. solar or starting the van to move it) when it is below zero.

 

[roadtripper]

I'm not sure Roamer's argument makes sense as stated, I think it more makes sense that they're taken a perfectly reasonable business decision that it's not an area of the market they want to address right now and have the complexity of another product line.

There are many situations where you want to have the battery charged but it will be no where near an operating heater. You're touring Scandinavian sites off grid and you decided to go skiing one day, are you really going to leave the heater running all day unattended so your solar panels can charge the battery in the winter sun?

It will always makes sense to have a battery with cold charging protection but if you expect to be regularly using the battery in those sort of conditions I suspect it makes more sense to choose a self heating option. If you're not then Roamer's likely argument that it's simpler, and presumably cheaper and maybe slightly higher capacity might be worth thinking about. I'm not sure I'd fit a self heating battery "just in case"

 

[TallPaul_S]

I'm not sure Roamer's argument makes sense as stated, I think it more makes sense that they're taken a perfectly reasonable business decision that it's not an area of the market they want to address right now and have the complexity of another product line.

There are many situations where you want to have the battery charged but it will be no where near an operating heater. You're touring Scandinavian sites off grid and you decided to go skiing one day, are you really going to leave the heater running all day unattended so your solar panels can charge the battery in the winter sun?

It will always makes sense to have a battery with cold charging protection but if you expect to be regularly using the battery in those sort of conditions I suspect it makes more sense to choose a self heating option. If you're not then Roamer's likely argument that it's simpler, and presumably cheaper and maybe slightly higher capacity might be worth thinking about. I'm not sure I'd fit a self heating battery "just in case"

I think in that scenario (regular travel to sub zero climates) then they'd recommend their extreme range.

Essentially instead of offering a heated battery they've made one that doesn't require a heater.

They have addressed the sub zero charging option as a complete separate battery type, and tbh if anyone was a regular traveller to sub zero climates then the extreme batteries are without a doubt better than relying on a heater (or having the van heated up). The guys video I linked to goes to the artic every winter for a few months and regularly sees -30 or lower.

Roamer XTREME Lithium Batteries

Roamer XTREME lithium leisure batteries are built for freezing cold temperatures. Perfectly suited for campervans, boats, and arctic adventures. Free UK Delivery.

roamer.com

 

[TJH1985]

My Renogy DCDC 50 has a battery temp probe, so reduces/prevents charging at low temperatures.

View attachment 270533

@drinfinity Renege suggest in the installation guide that the DCDC battery temp sensor should not be used with a LiFePo4 that has a BMS which I assume is most. Assume to ensure its just managed by the BMS itself?

 

[drinfinity]

@drinfinity Renege suggest in the installation guide that the DCDC battery temp sensor should not be used with a LiFePo4 that has a BMS which I assume is most. Assume to ensure its just managed by the BMS itself?

Yes, I have to confess I’m slightly confused by the Renogy manuals here. The DCDC says there is no temperature compensation for Li batteries.

The battery manual has warning and protection limits defined, but also states “if battery temperature gets too low during charging please disconnect charging source.”

 

[TallPaul_S]

Yes, I have to confess I’m slightly confused by the Renogy manuals here. The DCDC says there is no temperature compensation for Li batteries.

The battery manual has warning and protection limits defined, but also states “if battery temperature gets too low during charging please disconnect charging source.”

Temperature compensation for AGM batteries is needed as the charging voltage is altered depending on the battery temperature.

That's not required for LiFePO4 batteries.

Temperature cut off is a whole different thing. It might use the same temperature sensor but it's a completely different setting.

 

[TJH1985]

Yes, I have to confess I’m slightly confused by the Renogy manuals here. The DCDC says there is no temperature compensation for Li batteries.

The battery manual has warning and protection limits defined, but also states “if battery temperature gets too low during charging please disconnect charging source.”

Yeah I just read the "Caution: Do not use the temperature sensor on a LiFePO4 (LFP) battery which comes with a battery management system (BMS)." so assumed the temperature sensor should not be fitted on a LiFePO4 at all? But you would think given you tell it the battery type it would just ignore the temperature sensors.

 

[drinfinity]

Yeah I just read the "Caution: Do not use the temperature sensor on a LiFePO4 (LFP) battery which comes with a battery management system (BMS)." so assumed the temperature sensor should not be fitted on a LiFePO4 at all? But you would think given you tell it the battery type it would just ignore the temperature sensors.

That’s interesting. In my manual it doesn’t have that warning, and it says

“4.3 If the service battery type is set to lithium, the DCC50S will stop charging the service battery when its temperature is lower than 1C, and recover to charge when it's higher than 3C.”

 

[Green Giant]

we are planning a 3-4 week Sweden and Finland trip in the van next January, and slowly prepping the van.
After watching quite a few YouTube vids of others that have been out at that time of year, most leave their diesel heater on permanently, for weeks on end, otherwise everything in the van will potentially freeze, so that’s what I will do,( it’s not a Chinese heater!) I’ll remove the plastic trim on rear of seat base to let the warm air get to it.
At the time I needed a battery Roamer didn’t have the Extreme in stock.
We will be driving most days so battery will get topped up then