Starter Battery Discharge

[Dellmassive]

just for reference here is my 2 battery readouts:

van will start fine daily and after 2weeks resting, but have had issues when parked for 3weeks or more.

OEM starter (AGM)(should be about 80% due to stop/start):




OEM Leisure (EFB+) (via Redarc BCDC1240)(should be upto 100% but have small loads connected like USB chargers etc that even when not charging will draw some mA`s):



.

 

[Ads_Essex]

Ok, that’s good to hear. I’ll keep an eye on it and see whether the recondition charge has helped or not.

Nothing else is running off of it and I don’t leave anything plugged in, so it shouldn’t have any drain. The last time I used Carista I didn’t receive any error codes like the one you mentioned, but I’ll give it another go and see if it is now there.

Thanks for your advice mate - I’ll keep you posted.

 

[Dellmassive]

This is what i had from Carista when i left the OBD2 bluetooth thing plugged in . . . .

Battery Regulator 02256 – quiescent current - Battery monitor detecting power drain from starter battery (about above 50mA) (left the Carista plugged in obd2 PORT overnight)


Vcds And Carista Fault Codes

.

 

[Dellmassive]

if your leaving the van for a while . . . . maybe look at a 50w solar trickle charger like this?

Mobile Solar Panels ? . . . - How I Did It -

.

 

[Ads_Essex]

Yeah, solar is back on the agenda now, particularly so now the prices have dropped.

I saw @Skinnysye mention a Votronic B2B charger and wonder whether that would give me a simpler system:

Solar power —> Ring RSCDC30 —> leisure battery —> Votronic —> starter battery..

 

[Dellmassive]

yep, thats just a Diode(one way power) and resistor(current limiting) in a plastic box . . . . . . so expensive for what it it.

Thing is your starter will always be charged to 80% (stop/start/bluemotion) . . . . . so via the (VOTRONIC - StandBy Charger) the starter battery will always drain power away from the Leisure battery to equalize the two batteries. . . . . unless you have constant solar or EHU to keep the charge level high. ( then it will work great and both batteries will have a full charge)

but it will only work if you have a constant source of charging power . . . ie solar or EHU.

But if its just the two batteries or solar on cloudy day or winter. . . . . then the leisure will just drain down into the starter untill both are at the same level (voltage / potential).

I've looked at those before and its a case by case basis depending on your install . . . . its worth giving it a go. (i think @andys uses one with solar)

ill test one when i get a chance . . . . . .but without a good source of solar when the van is parked . . . . i get the impression the leisure battery will just drain down into the starter battery untill both are at the same voltage . . . . . net effect would be that the starter would be up from 80% to 90% and the leisure down from 100% to 90%


and yes . . . . that would work.

Solar power/engine alternator —> Ring RSCDC30 —> leisure battery —> Votronic —> starter battery..


funily enough it actually mentions that you need an external charge . . . either solar or EHU.

StandBy Charger

The VOTRONIC StandBy Charger serves for automatic recharging and trickle charge of the starter battery or the auxiliary battery, if the mains supply charger, the solar charging controller or the generator is equipped with only one charging port. Retrofit of the unit is very easy by just interconnecting it between board battery and starter battery or board battery and auxiliary battery, without having to change the cabling.

If the mains supply charger operates and charges the board battery, a small part of the charging current - depending on the charging condition - will be charged to the second battery (starter battery or auxiliary battery). This trickle charge is effected automatically and can be recognized by an increased voltage of the second battery. Overcharging of the second battery is excluded, since the charging voltage is reduced by at least 0.6 V and the charging current is limited for 12V to 2 A and for 24V to



if i fitted one . . . . i would include a inline shut-off switch to i could have it on when needed , , , , but switch it off when poor solar or no EHU so that the leisure battery stayed as charged as possible . . . . but switch in back on when solar/ECU was availible . . .

remember the ring is charging the leisure battery when the van is running anyway . . . . so its just for when parked up for a long time.

 

[Ads_Essex]

yep, thats just a Diode(one way power) and resistor(current limiting) in a plastic box . . . . . . so expensive for what it it.

Thing is your starter will always be charged to 80% (stop/start/bluemotion) . . . . . so via the (VOTRONIC - StandBy Charger) the starter battery will always drain power away from the Leisure battery to equalize the two batteries. . . . . unless you have constant solar or EHU to keep the charge level high. ( then it will work great and both batteries will have a full charge)

but it will only work if you have a constant source of charging power . . . ie solar or EHU.

But if its just the two batteries or solar on cloudy day or winter. . . . . then the leisure will just drain down into the starter untill both are at the same level (voltage / potential).

I've looked at those before and its a case by case basis depending on your install . . . . its worth giving it a go. (i think @andys uses one with solar)

ill test one when i get a chance . . . . . .but without a good source of solar when the van is parked . . . . i get the impression the leisure battery will just drain down into the starter battery untill both are at the same voltage . . . . . net effect would be that the starter would be up from 80% to 90% and the leisure down from 100% to 90%


and yes . . . . that would work.

Solar power/engine alternator —> Ring RSCDC30 —> leisure battery —> Votronic —> starter battery..


funily enough it actually mentions that you need an external charge . . . either solar or EHU.

StandBy Charger

The VOTRONIC StandBy Charger serves for automatic recharging and trickle charge of the starter battery or the auxiliary battery, if the mains supply charger, the solar charging controller or the generator is equipped with only one charging port. Retrofit of the unit is very easy by just interconnecting it between board battery and starter battery or board battery and auxiliary battery, without having to change the cabling.

If the mains supply charger operates and charges the board battery, a small part of the charging current - depending on the charging condition - will be charged to the second battery (starter battery or auxiliary battery). This trickle charge is effected automatically and can be recognized by an increased voltage of the second battery. Overcharging of the second battery is excluded, since the charging voltage is reduced by at least 0.6 V and the charging current is limited for 12V to 2 A and for 24V to



if i fitted one . . . . i would include a inline shut-off switch to i could have it on when needed , , , , but switch it off when poor solar or no EHU so that the leisure battery stayed as charged as possible . . . . but switch in back on when solar/ECU was availible . . .

remember the ring is charging the leisure battery when the van is running anyway . . . . so its just for when parked up for a long time.

That was the thought process I started having - would the solar top up the leisure battery, causing the relay to open and charge up the starter battery, which would then tell the Ring to fire up and charge the leisure battery.. granted, they’d both receive charge, but how efficiently..?
The switch sounds like the right idea for this instance. Good thinking.

 

[Dellmassive]

the votronic has no relay . . . see the Amazon review of the guy that bough one and opened the case.





Ring rscdc30

RSCDC30

https://www.ringautomotive.com/files/mydocs/RSCDC30 Instructions.pdf

looking at the ring spec,

there is no way of having it setup for ignition to switch on . . . . its automatic, ( the Redarc and others use and ignition feed to startup)

according to the voltage levels of the starter battery:

ring cut-off - 12.6v
ring recover - 13.1v

and the solar is used to charge the output battery . . . . . . . so yes. if the starter battery voltage rises above the 13.1v it may switch on and keep cycling on/off/on/off/on


also the ring draws 20mA when sleeping (which will add to the draw on the battery and slightly reduce the total time the battery will last for)


i suppose the good thing is that when you connect a EHU charger it will charge both batteries (via the ring)

you could also go the otherway . . . . . and a use a seperate solar controler (like the Victron MPPT) connected to the starter battery . . . . . which would in tern charge the leisure battery via the Ring.


so in your setup the Votronic may not be the best idea.

 

[Dellmassive]

i think your your case it might be best to :

Solar panel + victron controller/engine alternator/EHU —> starter battery —> Ring RSCDC30 —> leisure battery.

this way any charge source - Solar panel + victron controller/engine alternator/EHU

will always charge the starter . . . . .

and also charge the leisure battery due to the nature in the Ring auto-start above 13.6v so that unlike of the DC-DC chargers that need the engine running, this one doesnt.

there may be a delay in the Ring "kicking-in" when charging if the starter battery was low as it would possibly pull the charging voltage down below the 13.6v switch on of the ring . . . . but once the starter is topped up the Ring will fire up and send power to the leisure side, as well as keeping the starter topped up.?


I've not tried this setup . . . . . but in my head it looks right.




apart from all of the above there is always the option of just leaving the starter battery as-is and carry around a small lithium jump-pack in case of that flat battery scenario and concentrate your solar/EHU on the leisure battery side.

 

[Ads_Essex]

i think your your case it might be best to:

Solar panel + victron controller/engine alternator/EHU —> starter battery —> Ring RSCDC30 —> leisure battery.

this way any charge source - Solar panel + victron controller/engine alternator/EHU

will always charge the starter . . . . .

and also charge the leisure battery due to the nature in the Ring auto-start above 13.6v so that unlike of the DC-DC chargers that need the engine running, this one doesnt.

there may be a delay in the Ring "kicking-in" when charging if the starter battery was low as it would possibly pull the charging voltage down below the 13.6v switch on of the ring . . . . but once the starter is topped up the Ring will fire up and send power to the leisure side, as well as keeping the starter topped up.?

I've not tried this setup . . . . . but in my head it looks right.

Would this cause grief when the engine is running?

...apart from all of the above there is always the option of just leaving the starter battery as-is and carry around a small lithium jump-pack in case of that flat battery scenario and concentrate your solar/EHU on the leisure battery side.

This is something I’m now considering..!

 

[Dellmassive]

@travelvolts . . . any opinions or suggestions for @Ads_Essex on his charging requirement?

current setup: starter battery ----> Ring RSCDC30 -----> AGM extreme leisure battery

 

[Dellmassive]

Would this cause grief when the engine is running?

not that i can see

This is something I’m now considering..!

Which Jump Starter?

 

[Skinnysye]

inline shut-off switch to i could have it on when needed , , , , but switch it off when poor solar or no EHU so that the leisure battery stayed as charged as possible . . . . but switch in back on when solar/ECU was availible . . .

This is exactly how I operate my system,
I use the "Load output" function on the victron mppt controller as my inline switch operated by Bluetooth & use a user defined algorithm in the settings to switch the load output on / off according to power produced by the solar panel.. I've had this set up running for six months now with no problems.

 

[cowlsy]

Probably like most of us the trusty camper had been laying idle in the drive for the last couple of weeks. (3 weeks in my case). to be honest I have been living in on the drive and it has been connected up to the mains through the CTEK charger and leisure battery system. The side door has been opened and closed a lot during the day and left open for long periods of time (so im assuming that this has drained the battery(

This afternoon thought it would be a good idea to start the van and go around the block a few times with the compromise being charge the battery and bugger the DPF filter at the same time , hey ho

Worryingly when I jumped in the van (it was already unlocked) the MFD was blank.... similarly putting the the key into the ignition and tuning it did nothing, not a glimmer of anything, not even a sprinkling of dash lights. Mmmmm not good at this point.

Being a resourceful guy I got the 'Lidl' lithium starter device from the back of the stowage cupboard. Feeling cockily confident I connected up to the battery ensuring the unit was fully charged and good to go.
Immediately I had a functioning MFD although it was now flashing "safe lock" which I assumed must be to do wit the alarm system , so just in case I disarmed the system and proceeded to attempt to start the van. On turning the key the van initially began to crank the stater motor, but soon died away and just made a high pitched clicking noise. By this time the Lidl lithium starter init was bleeping at me and the battery was already depleted.
Plan 'B' - rescued the jump leads out the back of the VW UP and connected as recommended - with there wife sat in Up at a steady 1500 rpm I again urtnened the4 ignition key, again the van made two attempts to 'turnover' but after that just that clicking noise? + plus loads of random stuff coming up in the MFD?

Background Vehicle information : 2018 t28 V6 105bhp. Euro 5/6? Full conversion in 2019 to Campervan (pop top, RIB bed, domestic fridge etc etc, CTEK charging system and leisure battery.
Oh, and it has a MOLL battery... (see photo)


So..... what do I do?, what are my options?

1. Do I - call out VW Assistance? sounds like the battery is knackered and I assuming that it would be covered under warranty? If VW do indeed attend do they carry them or is it a dealer fit requirement? whats ever bodies wexerience with this, do they try and fob you off , I understand that there is a general issue with the MOLL?

If its not VW but an AA patrol what are the limitations of what they can do if the battery is knackered? - supplementary to this does any of the VCDS need reprogramming after a total battery failure? if so do the AA do this or is it again a dealer requirement? whats everyone thoughts on this ?

2. Do I just invest in a decent trickle charger (CTEK MXS 5) or some thing of a similar ilk and give that a go over a few days? same question as above though what element of VCDS/VGCOM will need to be reprogrammed? and would that then be a dealer obligation if I have just charged the battery?

3. Do I just bite the bullet and by a new battery (recommendations please) or am I being stupid due to it being a warranty issue? Same supplementary questions then arise regarding VCDS etc .


What does everybody recommend please.

 

[Deaky]

Call VW assist. It is covered under warranty

 

[cowlsy]

Call VW assist. It is covered under warranty

Thanks Deaky, whats your experience with them , is it just pot luck if the send out the AA or is it generally VW technicians?

 

[sparkzer]

sounds like your Ctek was not charging, your battery is proper dead, your starter pack doesn't have the power to jump the van on its own with the battery being so flat and your jump leads cant carry sufficient current from the Up to get the T6 to crank/power vital systems.

if you want to go down the VW assist route, thats fine however they will ask if you need the use of your vehicle during the lock down according to the AAs website, they will want to fob you off if they can until lockdown is over.

if you just wanna get it started, stick the jump leads on and leave it connected and running for 10-15 mins...it will put enough power in to the T6 battery to allow it to crank correctly/start with the jump leads still connected.

 

[cowlsy]

sounds like your Ctek was not charging, your battery is proper dead, your starter pack doesn't have the power to jump the van on its own with the battery being so flat and your jump leads cant carry sufficient current from the Up to get the T6 to crank/power vital systems.

if you want to go down the VW assist route, thats fine however they will ask if you need the use of your vehicle during the lock down according to the AAs website, they will want to fob you off if they can until lockdown is over.

if you just wanna get it started, stick the jump leads on and leave it connected and running for 10-15 mins...it will put enough power in to the T6 battery to allow it to crank correctly/start.

Cheers , I will give that a go tomorrow

 

[Murdoch]

The dreaded Moll battery problem strikes again

 

[Dellmassive]

as above possible battery issue: (but note that 3weeks will kill most T6 starter batteries due to background power use for alarm etc)

MOLL Batteries:
Stop/start...regen...smart Alternator... Dc-dc Charger For Leisure Battery Or Not?

then look for a decent charger: Battery Chargers - How I Did It -

and a decent jump pack: Which Jump Starter?
.
more info here:

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