Which Suspension? Pros And Cons
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Having read these threads over and over again in the last 2-3 years on here, the simple fact is almost every person that wants their T6 lowering is for the same reason, the huge arch gap. Most who aren't that experienced or in the know will opt for VWs 30mm springs. They then come on here and mention the words 'crashy' and 'not low enough'
The 'not low enough' is simply because of that arch gap. Some then try to fill that gap with huge wheels that often makes a Transporter look like it's on steroids, then some of these owners spend ages tinkering round with their rides because they cannot get them looking how they want, and mostly because they aren't low enough to give that level stance they keep looking at elsewhere. The very simple fact is if you keep using 30-40 or even 50mm drops, but you actually want it looking low and level, then this probably won't work for you aesthetically. You will end up changing springs and wheels until eventually you've spent enough money to go on Air. Then you finally bite the bullet and opt for a good deeper coilover setup and hey presto, you stand back and the penny 'drops' it's low, but more importantly its level.
The drawback from this is comfort in my experience. I don't care what anyone says, lowering a commercial vehicle to a point where you loose the big arch gap will upset the comfort, it's just a matter of getting that uncomfortable drive as good as it can be, and I doubt any of the above suggestions will achieve what most would consider comfortable, but happy to be corrected.
Mine will always feel stiff to anyone that hasn't driven a commercial vehicle that's as low as I am, but not one person will look at it and say it looks wrong. You soon get used to that stiffness when you drive it hard and the grinfactor kicks in.
Yeah, I'm the first to admit it gets tiresome dodging potholes, and crawling over speed bumps, or scrubbing the belly as you exit a steep driveway, but it is what it is, uncomfortable but bloody cool as...
The 'not low enough' is simply because of that arch gap. Some then try to fill that gap with huge wheels that often makes a Transporter look like it's on steroids, then some of these owners spend ages tinkering round with their rides because they cannot get them looking how they want, and mostly because they aren't low enough to give that level stance they keep looking at elsewhere. The very simple fact is if you keep using 30-40 or even 50mm drops, but you actually want it looking low and level, then this probably won't work for you aesthetically. You will end up changing springs and wheels until eventually you've spent enough money to go on Air. Then you finally bite the bullet and opt for a good deeper coilover setup and hey presto, you stand back and the penny 'drops' it's low, but more importantly its level.
The drawback from this is comfort in my experience. I don't care what anyone says, lowering a commercial vehicle to a point where you loose the big arch gap will upset the comfort, it's just a matter of getting that uncomfortable drive as good as it can be, and I doubt any of the above suggestions will achieve what most would consider comfortable, but happy to be corrected.
Mine will always feel stiff to anyone that hasn't driven a commercial vehicle that's as low as I am, but not one person will look at it and say it looks wrong. You soon get used to that stiffness when you drive it hard and the grinfactor kicks in.
Yeah, I'm the first to admit it gets tiresome dodging potholes, and crawling over speed bumps, or scrubbing the belly as you exit a steep driveway, but it is what it is, uncomfortable but bloody cool as...
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Strongly recommend Shocks and springs, before springs and A R B s , A good performance shock stops a lot of body roll which is what an A R B does , the benefit of a shock however is a great ride . Shocks Limit body roll and improved braking because the pitch is also limited . ARB cant help with Pitch .
Redun I am a KW performance partner as well if you need some help with that , " KW Performance Partners" are geared up to sell all the specialist KW product and set ups . The kits are often made to order so prepare for worst case scenario 4 to 5 weeks .
@CRS Performance
How about the Koni dampers with the Eibach comfort springs. Thinking the ability to adjust the rear ride height to match the front, will prevent the saggy bum on some camper conversions.
How about the Koni dampers with the Eibach comfort springs. Thinking the ability to adjust the rear ride height to match the front, will prevent the saggy bum on some camper conversions.
dieseldonkey To be honest the KONI shocks are so good they will work with anything ( drop dependant ) , Personally I like the idea of the Eibach adjustable rear end , I do however have reservations that the spring rate they use is suitable for all the different Vans and Mods . The B 14 suffers with this problem on certain applications as well
I will get hold of Eibach and see if I can get some of those to evaluate them .
Getting the height on the rear to LOOK good is not really the answer we need a spring rate that can control the rear axle movement with out bottoming out , this is way more important than the looks >/
I will get hold of Eibach and see if I can get some of those to evaluate them .
Getting the height on the rear to LOOK good is not really the answer we need a spring rate that can control the rear axle movement with out bottoming out , this is way more important than the looks >/
Looking at pictures of rear springs with adjustable platforms, it seems that two inches of spring is lost to get the adjuster in. The shortened spring has to be much thicker/stiffer and has a less travel before it is ‘coil bound’.
Yet the front, due to its design, can use the same length spring and it is the positioning and setting of the adjustable platform that sets the height, maintaining the same compression ‘opportunity’ when you hit a bump.
My tintop (skoda superb) always bottomed out when we were loaded up for holidays and it destroyed a set of bump stops, hence I’m nervous about shortened movement of the rear spring.
Yet the front, due to its design, can use the same length spring and it is the positioning and setting of the adjustable platform that sets the height, maintaining the same compression ‘opportunity’ when you hit a bump.
My tintop (skoda superb) always bottomed out when we were loaded up for holidays and it destroyed a set of bump stops, hence I’m nervous about shortened movement of the rear spring.
Thanks @CRS Performance. It's not so much the 'look' but rather the various handling and potential headlight issues that saggy bottom causes. Especially if your sagging before you've loaded all your camping kit, bike racks etc.
With standard T32 Shuttle suspension, the weight of the camper conversion means I have a reasonable level of compliance in the suspension, so as not to be quite as 'crashy' as perhaps an empty van. This together with 50 or 60 profile tyres (depending on the season). However, I'm just wondering if a dual tube damper such as the Koni and sensible springs would move the ride quality further from just compliant, more towards plush. Although I do appreciate it's a van at the end of the day. Height wise a drop of 30-40 mm is as low as I'd consider dropping.
I did however find that uprated H&R anti roll bars has transformed body roll and made the van so much more enjoyable to drive through the bends. Comfort achieved, in respect of not feeling like your being tipped out the seat. Even though my particular pop top apparently adds 80kg at roof height.
The van I tried today was a camper conversion not a kombi. It had H&R -40 springs, H&R anti roll bars and standard shocks.
Height wise it looked near perfect for me - prob 2 1/2” between tyre and arch (3 fingers). Ride wise it was noticeably firmer than my standard van, but not stiff, and cornered flat.
I’m going to keep looking / researching and buy in the new year (no time to fit / too cold!)
Ian
Height wise it looked near perfect for me - prob 2 1/2” between tyre and arch (3 fingers). Ride wise it was noticeably firmer than my standard van, but not stiff, and cornered flat.
I’m going to keep looking / researching and buy in the new year (no time to fit / too cold!)
Ian
We fit lots of suspension. And our recommends are as follows;
If you can only afford springs then I would recommend going no bigger than 18” wheels - anything over this can be harsh, but we sell loads and people are happy with the results. H&R -40mm are our preferred spring.
On 20’s the B14’s work very well, and we have literally sold 100’s and all are very satisfied. If you run at full height, even on 20’s, the ride is very good - we have a £60k Caravelle executive that we rent out on B14’s and 20’s. The ride is better than the previous one we had with DCC and VW springs and certainly much better than the standard floaty suspension - we have had zero complaints from customers. We fit a lot to camper conversions to run, at full height, and level the suspension about and generally make it drive 100% better.
However if you are like me and like it lower and firmer, you can do this, and my own Caravelle concerted Kombi is 15mm off the bottom, levelled out at the back and has ARbs. The ride is firm but not crashy. Again we send loads of vehicle out like this with no complaints. At present this is my personal preferred setup, and probably our biggest seller. However you run them all the way down, and they are very firm. It’s a balancing act to get it right. I’d like to see how the solo compares.
My personal RS3 is now running KWV3’s (thanks to some advise from CRS, and the fact Bilstein couldn’t supply B16’s!) and I have to say their technology works very well - This is my fourth suspension setup in just over three years and 27k miles on the Audi, so feel I am in a good position to evaluate it. I’m running it low on 19 OZ wheels, and there is no crashyness at all, and the ride is miles better than the factory magride. We are looking to run these or the street comfort on one of our next demos, to see how it compares.
Suspension is very subjective and what is acceptable to one person isn’t to another.
We offer a complete drive in drive out service and also run three different setups in our fleet so you can test back to back before making your decision.
I’d like to try the Koni setup @CRS Performance if you are ever down our way, to see if we have a market for it, if it’s as good as you say.
Im conclusion the B14 are still our best and most popular seller, to the point that we stock 10 kits and fit 2-3 a week presently.
HTH
If you can only afford springs then I would recommend going no bigger than 18” wheels - anything over this can be harsh, but we sell loads and people are happy with the results. H&R -40mm are our preferred spring.
On 20’s the B14’s work very well, and we have literally sold 100’s and all are very satisfied. If you run at full height, even on 20’s, the ride is very good - we have a £60k Caravelle executive that we rent out on B14’s and 20’s. The ride is better than the previous one we had with DCC and VW springs and certainly much better than the standard floaty suspension - we have had zero complaints from customers. We fit a lot to camper conversions to run, at full height, and level the suspension about and generally make it drive 100% better.
However if you are like me and like it lower and firmer, you can do this, and my own Caravelle concerted Kombi is 15mm off the bottom, levelled out at the back and has ARbs. The ride is firm but not crashy. Again we send loads of vehicle out like this with no complaints. At present this is my personal preferred setup, and probably our biggest seller. However you run them all the way down, and they are very firm. It’s a balancing act to get it right. I’d like to see how the solo compares.
My personal RS3 is now running KWV3’s (thanks to some advise from CRS, and the fact Bilstein couldn’t supply B16’s!) and I have to say their technology works very well - This is my fourth suspension setup in just over three years and 27k miles on the Audi, so feel I am in a good position to evaluate it. I’m running it low on 19 OZ wheels, and there is no crashyness at all, and the ride is miles better than the factory magride. We are looking to run these or the street comfort on one of our next demos, to see how it compares.
Suspension is very subjective and what is acceptable to one person isn’t to another.
We offer a complete drive in drive out service and also run three different setups in our fleet so you can test back to back before making your decision.
I’d like to try the Koni setup @CRS Performance if you are ever down our way, to see if we have a market for it, if it’s as good as you say.
Im conclusion the B14 are still our best and most popular seller, to the point that we stock 10 kits and fit 2-3 a week presently.
HTH
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The A R B s do help roll in corners its exactly what they are designed to do , there is no down side to fitting uprated A R B 's . , They effectively increase the spring rate on the outer side of the van in a corner to keep it flat to the ground . The standard shocks however are designed to control the standard springs and roll bars . Uprating springs and ARB s you need an adjustable shock that is capable to control this increase in spring rates . One of the big benefit of an adjustable damping shock is also the control of pitch this is the nose dive under braking . ARB cant help in this scenario .
Adding a lot of weight high up in the vehicle also makes the roll and pitch worse so anything to stop that is a good thing .
We have had great success recently with the fitting of shocks to cars with lowering springs that were already fitted . the improvement is immense.
Oli ( Bognor Motors ) the SOLOW will be a little more comfortable than B 14 ( at the same height ) because its the dual tube type shock not Mono tube .
Strangely however in the damper industry MONO tube shocks are more expensive than Dual Tube . But the Solow is more than the B 14 for some reason . ???
I am ready to send some Special active dampers to you to try . let me know if you have a vehicle with H&R springs to test !!
Watching this thread with interest, id like to get my wallowing, lob sided van sorted in the new year.
@CRS Performance
I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no downside to uprated ARBs but the downside is tiny in comparison to the benefit. As with all things suspension and with motor vehicles in general, it's all about the compromise. This is a copy and paste of a post I put on a year ago, after I'd fitted them. So these variable dual tube Koni's you fit are sounding very tempting.....
....Had the H&R ARBs on for three weeks now and had a chance to drive the van over various types of road.
Decided to fit them from a comfort point of view to reduce the tip you out your seat, 'standby to go about' lurch on the bends. Have to say they've come up trumps. On what's pretty much a permanently half loaded van, I would go so far as to say they've significantly reduced body roll with my standard T32 suspension. Generally, a much taughter feeling of turn in and overall a more enjoyable to drive.
Can't comment on understeer/oversteer balance, as I've yet to make that kind of progress since they've been fitted. Well, that combined with valuing what's left of my current tyres and preservation of the on board crockery.
Two things I've also noticed. Firstly over uneven surfaces, the movement is a bit more up and down as opposed to side to side. This in my view is a good thing in terms of comfort. To be expected, as stiffer ARBs reduce the amount of independence the suspension has across each pair of wheels.
However, and its only a small thing that you have to tune into to notice, and its only with fine irregularities in the road surface. But there is what I would call a low amplitude, higher frequency resonance, through the steering wheel. It maybe due to the harder bushes. Or maybe the standard dampers being slightly underrated to deal with the energy stored, with the increased torsional rigidity of the roll bar. Especially when its added to the existing spring rate. Perhaps a little too much combined twang in the set up without uprating the shocks. It's the balance of compromises thing again.
Although, VW recommend 56 psi in the fronts with my Devonports, dropping the front tyre pressure SLIGHTLY, helps take this resonance out the steering. Although I'm not condoning such behaviour, before anyone kicks off. Just saying. I've played about with the pressure, purely in the name of donkey science and curiosity.
So would I fit them again? Well, wish I'd fitted them sooner.
I wouldn't go so far as to say there is no downside to uprated ARBs but the downside is tiny in comparison to the benefit. As with all things suspension and with motor vehicles in general, it's all about the compromise. This is a copy and paste of a post I put on a year ago, after I'd fitted them. So these variable dual tube Koni's you fit are sounding very tempting.....
....Had the H&R ARBs on for three weeks now and had a chance to drive the van over various types of road.
Decided to fit them from a comfort point of view to reduce the tip you out your seat, 'standby to go about' lurch on the bends. Have to say they've come up trumps. On what's pretty much a permanently half loaded van, I would go so far as to say they've significantly reduced body roll with my standard T32 suspension. Generally, a much taughter feeling of turn in and overall a more enjoyable to drive.
Can't comment on understeer/oversteer balance, as I've yet to make that kind of progress since they've been fitted. Well, that combined with valuing what's left of my current tyres and preservation of the on board crockery.
Two things I've also noticed. Firstly over uneven surfaces, the movement is a bit more up and down as opposed to side to side. This in my view is a good thing in terms of comfort. To be expected, as stiffer ARBs reduce the amount of independence the suspension has across each pair of wheels.
However, and its only a small thing that you have to tune into to notice, and its only with fine irregularities in the road surface. But there is what I would call a low amplitude, higher frequency resonance, through the steering wheel. It maybe due to the harder bushes. Or maybe the standard dampers being slightly underrated to deal with the energy stored, with the increased torsional rigidity of the roll bar. Especially when its added to the existing spring rate. Perhaps a little too much combined twang in the set up without uprating the shocks. It's the balance of compromises thing again.
Although, VW recommend 56 psi in the fronts with my Devonports, dropping the front tyre pressure SLIGHTLY, helps take this resonance out the steering. Although I'm not condoning such behaviour, before anyone kicks off. Just saying. I've played about with the pressure, purely in the name of donkey science and curiosity.
So would I fit them again? Well, wish I'd fitted them sooner.
The KONI shocks will be a blessing in your scenario , one of the big sell features of a KONI shock in the BUS market ( Large passenger Buses ) is the capability to reduce and isolate road noise , not something we generally use as a sell feature with transporters but you are correct the resonance you can hear is probably the standard shock not coping with uprated springs and uprated anti roll bars
With H&R springs and H&R ARB's the only important thing missing is the KONI shocks , result s will be amazing . So amazing we are happy to offer a full refund if you aren't totally blown away with the results ( a warranty that most wouldn't be comfortable giving )
With H&R springs and H&R ARB's the only important thing missing is the KONI shocks , result s will be amazing . So amazing we are happy to offer a full refund if you aren't totally blown away with the results ( a warranty that most wouldn't be comfortable giving )
The wallowing is the easiest thing for us to fix , ill try explain why and how we do it ,
Generally shock absorbers absorb the kinetic energy of the unsprung mass of the car ( unsprung mass = Wheels, tyres , Brakes and any component below the road springs )
Turning this energy into heat by passing oil through valves in the foot of the shock ( rebound ) and the piston rod its self . (Bump ) The design of these valves is what determines the characteristics of the shock and its ability to keep the car stable . It also differentiates brands and how much they develop their shocks is where the better results are achieved .
A standard shock tends to offer more resistance to movement the faster it moves in and out ( item 1 to 3 on graph ). This shock offers little resistance at low frequencies ( 1) resulting in excessive BODY ROLL and PITCH the shock simply isn't stiff enough at these low frequency movements . The Valve design can not cope with hi sudden volumes of oil movement on bumpy roads so the shock gets HARDER the FASTER it moves . ( 3 )
A performance well designed shock offers high resistance when moving slowly ( 2 ) to offer superior handling and agility . This same shock is less hard when the shaft is moving fast and this maintains comfort .( 4)
This is how we get the compromise between comfort and performance from one shock and why they are so good . Lamborghini, McLaren, Aston Martin, all benefit from this technology of course , Sports cars where owners want comfort .
This explains how a wollowy feel on motorways and fast corners can be experienced from a shock that is often crashy and bumpy on bad roads. I hope this explains things in a down to earth way for the owners who are experiencing issues and hopefully now you know why !! You also now know how to fix it KONI .
Had these fitted today. Will update more when a few more miles are covered. Not to harsh at present. Tiny bit of roll.
Excellent explanation, something that a non specialist suspension person can understand.
will this also fix the lob sidedness as well ? i think this is caused by all the units etc being on one side of my fully converted van.
the lop sided problem could be simply a spring broken or sagged . if its the heavy interior over one of the rear wheels we may need to fit a spacer to correct this as changing spring rates from side to side isn't ideal at all . could make the van unstable under harsh or emergency braking
Mine never leaked. One of my rear springs snapped. Vagnostics who I bought them off would no honor a warranty claim or return any calls. Basically massive cockwombles.
Bilstein wouldn't do anything warranty wise with Vagnostics input. Anyway new springs were £150 a pair ao I just bought a set.
I have nearly 60k on my Billy's. Apart from.the spring, zero issues.
Not worth getting any other suspension. Been there and done that on my old t5. B14s are vastly superior.
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