Are EVs the way forward?

[Lubrown]

An interesting Harry's Garage video on the subject for anybody interested;

The first minute alone tells you everything- it’s a YouTuber spouting doom and gloom for the clicks and the income they bring.
“Turmoil” indeed! Markets fluctuate, always have always will. For countless reasons. YouTube is also full of motorcycle ‘journalists’ telling us the hobby is doomed and shops are shutting left, right and centre. Sales were up in November (year on year) - and that’s always been a hard month. Sure, some shops did close… many more didn’t and some were sold on to new management. Shit happens, but people still ride motorcycles.

The fact remains 25% of car journeys in the UK are under one mile and 75% are under five miles and it’s been like that for at least the last five years. Diesels, and even petrols, are totally unsuited to this type of motoring and we now understand this. We also understand, better than we ever had, the harm ICE vehicles cause. We know what we need to fix and are working through how to best do that.

The figures (above) from the SMMT show increasing market share of EVs vs ICE year on year.
Sure, now Trump is in power and is teaming up with Russia and the Middle East the message is ‘drill baby drill’ - and of course motor manufacturers will respond to that. They don’t like change either - it’s expensive, even if it’s the right thing to do. They are still geared up to produce ICE vehicles more than EVs. They have been lobbying governments hard despite the message from consumers. So yeah, maybe this year and the next three will buck the trend of the last five years (and maybe it won’t- are people rushing to buy new vehicles at all?) but as more people get flooded out of their homes, get fed up of rising food prices due to increasing crop failures, get sick of insurance premiums going up (natural disasters are blooming expensive) it’s more than likely they will swing back to wanting to do better and realise that for most people, on most of their journeys, EVs do make sense. We’ll see.
I don’t have a problem with the chopping and changing of the market as that is natural. The switch to cleaner travel needs challenges - it’s a good thing as it needs people’s buy-in and seeing the alternatives and the outcomes is part of that. We also need any switch to be fair and attainable to all.
But to pin your hat on the old way, that we know is sub-optimal, is shortsighted at best and plain misleading at worst.
People that don’t like change, and those that make money from stirring the pot (or by getting backhander of the oil producers) will fight it but they cannot change the facts and eventually they will lose. Wasn’t that long ago billions were spent annually telling us smoking was good for our health. No doubt Harry would have joined that debate with a polarised opinion too if he could.

 

[TallPaul_S]

The first minute alone tells you everything- it’s a YouTuber spouting doom and gloom for the clicks and the income they bring.
“Turmoil” indeed! Markets fluctuate, always have always will. For countless reasons. YouTube is also full of motorcycle ‘journalists’ telling us the hobby is doomed and shops are shutting left, right and centre. Sales were up in November (year on year) - and that’s always been a hard month. Sure, some shops did close… many more didn’t and some were sold on to new management. Shit happens, but people still ride motorcycles.

The fact remains 25% of car journeys in the UK are under one mile and 75% are under five miles and it’s been like that for at least the last five years. Diesels, and even petrols, are totally unsuited to this type of motoring and we now understand this. We also understand, better than we ever had, the harm ICE vehicles cause. We know what we need to fix and are working through how to best do that.

The figures (above) from the SMMT show increasing market share of EVs vs ICE year on year.
Sure, now Trump is in power and is teaming up with Russia and the Middle East the message is ‘drill baby drill’ - and of course motor manufacturers will respond to that. They don’t like change either - it’s expensive, even if it’s the right thing to do. They are still geared up to produce ICE vehicles more than EVs. They have been lobbying governments hard despite the message from consumers. So yeah, maybe this year and the next three will buck the trend of the last five years (and maybe it won’t- are people rushing to buy new vehicles at all?) but as more people get flooded out of their homes, get fed up of rising food prices due to increasing crop failures, get sick of insurance premiums going up (natural disasters are blooming expensive) it’s more than likely they will swing back to wanting to do better and realise that for most people, on most of their journeys, EVs do make sense. We’ll see.
I don’t have a problem with the chopping and changing of the market as that is natural. The switch to cleaner travel needs challenges - it’s a good thing as it needs people’s buy-in and seeing the alternatives and the outcomes is part of that. We also need any switch to be fair and attainable to all.
But to pin your hat on the old way, that we know is sub-optimal, is shortsighted at best and plain misleading at worst.
People that don’t like change, and those that make money from stirring the pot (or by getting backhander of the oil producers) will fight it but they cannot change the facts and eventually they will lose. Wasn’t that long ago billions were spent annually telling us smoking was good for our health. No doubt Harry would have joined that debate with a polarised opinion too if he could.

I actually thought that video was a very well put together summary of why there was an initial push for EV's and why they still make sense for a lot of people.

Harry's garage isn't a typical click bait style YouTube - Harry Metcalf co-owns EVO magazine, has written for 'proper' media for years before YouTube.

 

[Lubrown]

I actually thought that video was a very well put together summary of why there was an initial push for EV's and why they still make sense for a lot of people.

Harry's garage isn't a typical click bait style YouTube - Harry Metcalf co-owns EVO magazine, has written for 'proper' media for years before YouTube.

Four entire minutes of doom and gloom (which flies in the face of sales figures and focuses on high performance vehicles, not your typical consumer cars) followed by telling us EVs only happened because of VWs diesel gate (which was 2015 if I recall?).
I’d suggest a real journalist would be less sensationalist, more balanced and better informed.
Maybe I expect too much?

 

[TallPaul_S]

Four entire minutes of doom and gloom (which flies in the face of sales figures and focuses on high performance vehicles, not your typical consumer cars) followed by telling us EVs only happened because of VWs diesel gate (which was 2015 if I recall?).
I’d suggest a real journalist would be less sensationalist, more balanced and better informed.
Maybe I expect too much?

Manufacturers went all in on EV's due to Euro 7 emissions regs, but now all those luxury EV's at £100k are worth half or less, probably thanks to the public charging network reliability and cost, and now PHEV's have come along and are a good solution for a lot of people, along with small, light city EVs for those who only do short journeys. And Euro 7 has never fully arrived.

Not sure where the doomongering is in that, but hey...

He says multiple times that small cheap EVs are going to the biggest area for EVs to take off in.

 

[Lubrown]

Not sure where the doomongering is in that

First word of the title is ‘Turmoil’ which isn’t a positive start. We are told it’s “Turmoil as car industry put EVs on hold”. We are then given four minutes of ‘this is cancelled, that’s cancelled, this never went well etc.’ All with the backdrop that the big players are dropping EVs. Then there is the falsehood around when and why EVs took off.

It’s not a positive start.

Journalists know most people only read the headline. The majority of the rest only pay attention to the first couple of minutes.

So, if he is a proper journalist as you say, then he knows what he is up to - and it’s not positive.

He could have started with the facts - start with EV sales are up another 3.1% and now equate to almost 20% of all new car sales in the UK. But he didn’t. Because doom and gloom sells. There is quite the market for content consumers who like to see EVs bashed. Harry knows it, I know it and I suspect you do too. We see it in this discussion and in many videos on YouTube.

 

[DaveD]

8.13 into the video, "I'm not knocking electric, I think this is going to be a great year for electric, we really like electric..."
10.02 "I'm not knocking electric, for some people it (full EV) is absolutely the right thing to go and I enjoy electric motoring..."
10.50 He talks about the Renault R5 EV and says "I absolutely loved it, that, I think is the area of the market for electrics that is really gonna take off over the next year or two..."

But to pin your hat on the old way, that we know is sub-optimal, is shortsighted at best and plain misleading at worst.

Where does he pin his hat on the old way?
He's currently using a Range Rover hybrid and says that for 75% of his journeys it only uses battery power, some might think that's a good thing!

 

[Stay Frosty]

Depends, when you're part of the existing ice automotive industry and can afford to drive a Range Rover hybrid it's easy to tell people your interpretation of what the rest of the population should drive.
I get that not being able to charge from home is in reality a major setback to EV ownership and there will have to be a work around to this at some point as even on peak home charging at 25 pence per kWh is a mile away from the 60 to 70 odd pence for the same kWh in a charging station.

 

[DaveD]

Depends, when you're part of the existing ice automotive industry and can afford to drive a Range Rover hybrid it's easy to tell people your interpretation of what the rest of the population should drive.
I get that not being able to charge from home is in reality a major setback to EV ownership and there will have to be a work around to this at some point as even on peak home charging at 25 pence per kWh is a mile away from the 60 to 70 odd pence for the same kWh in a charging station.

True, but he's not just a part of the ICE automotive industry, his main transport (not including his car collection) for two years was EV and he's a big fan of them while acknowledging that they won't work for every user.

 

[Sasquatch]

There's going to come a point where every user will have no choice. It'll be a case of adapt, or die out like the dinosaurs.

Instead of constant blind denial, the sooner people start trying to adapt their lives to suit the less painful it'll be when it comes, because talk of other power sources is simply fanciful.

 

[Frigo110]

I get that not being able to charge from home is in reality a major setback to EV ownership and there will have to be a work around to this at some point as even on peak home charging at 25 pence per kWh is a mile away from the 60 to 70 odd pence for the same kWh in a charging station.

I think they are more factors to consider. The second hand market is not (yet) brilliant and initial costs are a major factor.
We offer free charging at work since 4 years (11KW, so an office day fills up your car). We have a EV rate from under 10% - 80% of that are company cars.

For 10K you can buy a reliable ICE that works fine for the next 5 years - challenging to find an EV for that.

 

[Sackmycook]

For 10K you can buy a reliable ICE that works fine for the next 5 years - challenging to find an EV for that.

I'd disagree. There are quite a few decent small EV's around the 10k mark. Things like E-Golf, E-Up!, BMW i3......all great quality cars that will give years of trouble free electric motoring. New one are starting to come onto the market at sub 14k (Dacia Spring 12999), so in a years time, they will be sub 10k, ex-lease vehicles.

 

[Bav]

There's going to come a point where every user will have no choice. It'll be a case of adapt, or die out like the dinosaurs.

Instead of constant blind denial, the sooner people start trying to adapt their lives to suit the less painful it'll be when it comes, because talk of other power sources is simply fanciful.

I would suggest that it's not as fanciful as the idea that the UK has (or will have, within the required timescale) the power-generation capacity to support 100% EV adoption.

With current policies, tech, prices and pricing strategies, the "adapt lives to suit" mantra is a de facto call for large swathes of the population - predominantly those in the lower socio-economic groupings - to forego personal transportation altogether. Given the inherent threat to livelihoods and personal liberties that would entail, labelling the inevitable pushback as "blind denial" is somewhat patronising.

 

[TallPaul_S]

I'd disagree. There are quite a few decent small EV's around the 10k mark. Things like E-Golf, E-Up!, BMW i3......all great quality cars that will give years of trouble free electric motoring. New one are starting to come onto the market at sub 14k (Dacia Spring 12999), so in a years time, they will be sub 10k, ex-lease vehicles.

Yeah there's loads of cheap city EVs around the 10/12k mark, and it's only going to get better with with the newer cars being launched. Lots around 20k brand new.

And obviously home charging is way cheaper than petrol or diesel, or public charging. If you've got the space, and somewhere to charge and only need the car for shorter trips/commuting etc then an EV just makes sense. If I had the space I'd add a BMW i3s without a second thought.

And if you do need the car for longer trips as well as local stuff then a PHEV makes sense.

 

[Stay Frosty]

@Frigo110 free charging at work is something I hadn't considered and would be a major incentive for those thinking of leasing an EV, yep I said it, "leasing".
We keep pretending we're defending the rights of those on a modest income to carry on driving their old bangers unmolested when the reality is frequently that of the old bangers being a 10 year old upper end German sub 30 MPG motor, murdered out in black or a modest £200 per month PCP Stellantis product, it is here in Northampton anyway.
I've been chomping at the bit to get an EV to offset our diesel swilling camper however I'm looking at secondhand and wobbling between quite a few potential motors from a BMW i3S through to a three way split between theVW id3 Pro S or Cupra Born both at 77 kWh or my favoured Megane e Tech Iconic with a smaller 60 kWh battery but automatically included heat pump.

 

[Salty Spuds]

I would suggest that it's not as fanciful as the idea that the UK has (or will have, within the required timescale) the power-generation capacity to support 100% EV adoption.

With current policies, tech, prices and pricing strategies, the "adapt lives to suit" mantra is a de facto call for large swathes of the population - predominantly those in the lower socio-economic groupings - to forego personal transportation altogether. Given the inherent threat to livelihoods and personal liberties that would entail, labelling the inevitable pushback as "blind denial" is somewhat patronising.

I think that future historians will look back at this current era with some bemusement. This is our "Canute Moment", trying to turn the tide. Climate change is as old as the earth & is inevitable (science fact, not theory), ok we might or might not, be speeding it up a tad, but even without human input, the climate of the planet WILL change. I think it's a prime example of human arrogance & hubris to think that we can have any major influence on the weather. So I get frustrated at all the tokenism & gesture politics associated with trying to stop something that we cannot. Instead of trying to halt climate change, we should be focussing our efforts on adapting & preparing for the inevitable, even embracing it. If all the money & political hot air had been diverted into making our environment more resilient to CC, then we'd be in a better place to cope. We need more water storage, better infrastructure, flood defences, stop building properties on flood plains, let the flood plains do their job. Develop crops that are more resistant to CC. etc.
I'm not saying that we should stop trying to reduce pollution in any form, but there are worse forms of pollution than CO2, it's not all about CC.
If politicians were really serious about reducing the human impact on the planet, a reduction in the human population would be top of the agenda, but you don't hear that mentioned in dispatches, it's always about growth. We are finding evermore methods of increasing the population, either by medicine or food production, and then complain when the planet is going downhill.
I'll get mi coat.....

 

[DaveD]

Instead of constant blind denial, the sooner people start trying to adapt their lives to suit the less painful it'll be when it comes,

I shall probably buy an EV at some point in the future, (unless the situation changes in a way that is not currently foreseeable) and put in the charging facilities at my house combined with a solar panel arrangement.
How would doing all of that now, at considerable expense, be "less painful" when I have a vehicle that complies with all current legislation?

 

[Lubrown]

I think that future historians will look back at this current era with some bemusement. This is our "Canute Moment", trying to turn the tide. Climate change is as old as the earth & is inevitable (science fact, not theory), ok we might or might not, be speeding it up a tad, but even without human input, the climate of the planet WILL change. I think it's a prime example of human arrogance & hubris to think that we can have any major influence on the weather. So I get frustrated at all the tokenism & gesture politics associated with trying to stop something that we cannot. Instead of trying to halt climate change, we should be focussing our efforts on adapting & preparing for the inevitable, even embracing it. If all the money & political hot air had been diverted into making our environment more resilient to CC, then we'd be in a better place to cope. We need more water storage, better infrastructure, flood defences, stop building properties on flood plains, let the flood plains do their job. Develop crops that are more resistant to CC. etc.
I'm not saying that we should stop trying to reduce pollution in any form, but there are worse forms of pollution than CO2, it's not all about CC.
If politicians were really serious about reducing the human impact on the planet, a reduction in the human population would be top of the agenda, but you don't hear that mentioned in dispatches, it's always about growth. We are finding evermore methods of increasing the population, either by medicine or food production, and then complain when the planet is going downhill.
I'll get mi coat.....

There is plenty of evidence that links human industrial activity and average temperatures increasing. You can look this up.

And we know the simplistic view of ‘the planet has been warmer/colder/changing in the past’ forgets the blindingly obvious… mankind wasn’t around during those periods and change that did happen took thousands of years… not less than a century as we now see.

Another effect of burning fossil fuels that people who choose to focus solely on climate change always seem to forget is the impact to human health. Deaths due to heat are increasing annually, deaths due to extreme weather happen and we know particle pollution - the type emitted by burning fossil fuels, enters the body and crosses internal barriers and is linked to cancer and heart health. Healthcare is hugely expensive and impactful not just to the economy as a whole but individuals and families too.

On reservoirs remember they are hugely expensive not just to build but to maintain too. They take up a lot of room. They limit building area downstream due to safety implications. They silt up. And once full and the next storm hits…

Certainly in the UK we don’t have the space or money to store all the water the weather delivers all of the time. Extreme events easily overwhelm channels and pipes so getting water safely into the reservoirs isn’t as easy as some make out.
Do you think the public would be happy spending trillions and losing building/farming land to build reservoirs for occasional storage?

Totally with you on not allowing building on flood plains.

The planet will be fine whatever we do - it’s mankind that will suffer and just as we know we have had a rapid effect (and we know why) we can also work out what we need to do to not make the situation too much worse while actually improving people’s health and quality of life.

 

[Lubrown]

8.13 into the video, "I'm not knocking electric, I think this is going to be a great year for electric, we really like electric..."
10.02 "I'm not knocking electric, for some people it (full EV) is absolutely the right thing to go and I enjoy electric motoring..."
10.50 He talks about the Renault R5 EV and says "I absolutely loved it, that, I think is the area of the market for electrics that is really gonna take off over the next year or two..."




Where does he pin his hat on the old way?
He's currently using a Range Rover hybrid and says that for 75% of his journeys it only uses battery power, some might think that's a good thing!

So, as I already said, why lead with the negativity?
And the title - why is that negative and misleading?
If he is so adamant EVs are useful for lots of people why not do that as a video and maybe tag on the bit about Aston Martin, Porsche, Audis bigger sports versions etc at the end?

Journalists know it’s the headline that gets their chosen message across.

 

[Frigo110]

I'd disagree. There are quite a few decent small EV's around the 10k mark. Things like E-Golf, E-Up!, BMW i3......all great quality cars that will give years of trouble free electric motoring. New one are starting to come onto the market at sub 14k (Dacia Spring 12999), so in a years time, they will be sub 10k, ex-lease vehicles.

Not trying to challenge you here but "quite a few" would be 6 in a radius of 50 miles around my postcode for under 10K.
I´m not talking about a 10 year old Leaf with 80 miles remaining range.

I have an ID3, company car, now 3 years old and will be replaced now.
Reaminig value for the lease company is still 18K.

Positive: It still has 103% battery - got delivered with 109% capacity (58er battery).

 

[TallPaul_S]

Over 100 (non cat N etc) under 5 year old EV's under £10k within 50 miles of me. Plenty to choose from; Zoe, Leaf, E-Up, 208, corsa, smart forFour, MG ZS, Ioniq... Etc.

That's in Kent so obviously in more rural areas there choice might be less.

My money would still be on an older i3, they must be close to the bottom of the depreciation now, and I doubt anything like that win be made again soon - full carbon tub chassis etc.

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33kwh model for 10k seems about right.