Campervan Lithium power bank HUGE explosion, please be vigilant!

[Johns]

id leave it on YT for now . . . .

if there is a RECALL of the units i would want to know . . . .

and after seeing your post/Vid on "THAT PARTICULAR UNIT" . . . . . if i had one i would stop using it.


having said that i love the ALLPOWERS 372wh box and have two of them, plus other Lithium products.

it just shows that any stored energy product can be dangerous and deserves respect . . . . whether is a petrol generator or a lithium power pack.

The mate that made the short video, daughters boyfriend by the way, put a link to a couple of other YouTube videos that were demonstrating that version just to say look what happened to mine, I don’t want to say the same over but maybe I was just unlucky, but anyone can be unlucky, was I lucky I heard the popping sound, I’m retired and have a life of experiences, a young kid may have not heard it or recognised something was not quite right, or had headphones on and the without any notice, no initial signs of smoke or anything to see, just suddenly plumes of smoke and whoosh, my mind goes over and over possibilities of what could have happened, but maybe that’s shock, I’m alive, nobody injured lucky escape, who wouldn’t want to help warn others, and who wouldn’t want to at least know if they had the same model, OR if a different model examine it to see if it did do what mine did what way the flames would go and don’t have that part facing you or anything critical like a gas bottle!

I have emailed back to say I will leave the video at the moment, they were very helpful and are refunding my paypal account for the burnt unit as it was still just under warranty, not done so yet but will monitor that, I didn’t want a replacement not that they asked.

 

[OllieGBR]

Is this a LiPO or a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery?(LifePO4)

Just added a LifePO4 to my van

 

[Dellmassive]

LIPO by the looks of it . . .

Lithium polymer battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

LiPo cells are affected by the same problems as other lithium-ion cells. This means that overcharge, over-discharge, over-temperature, short circuit, crush and nail penetration may all result in a catastrophic failure, including the pouch rupturing, the electrolyte leaking, and fire.[16]

****************************

LIFEPO4: == are much safer chemistry

Lithium iron phosphate battery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Safety[edit]
One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety.[17] LiFePO
4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO
2 and manganese spinel, through omission of the cobalt, with its negative temperature coefficient of resistance that can encourage thermal runaway. The P–O bond in the (PO
4)3−
ion is stronger than the Co–O bond in the (CoO
2)−
ion, so that when abused (short-circuited, overheated, etc.), the oxygen atoms are released more slowly. This stabilization of the redox energies also promotes faster ion migration.[18]

As lithium migrates out of the cathode in a LiCoO
2 cell, the CoO
2 undergoes non-linear expansion that affects the structural integrity of the cell. The fully lithiated and unlithiated states of LiFePO
4 are structurally similar which means that LiFePO
4 cells are more structurally stable than LiCoO
2 cells.[citation needed]

No lithium remains in the cathode of a fully charged LiFePO
4 cell. (In a LiCoO
2 cell, approximately 50% remains.) LiFePO
4 is highly resilient during oxygen loss, which typically results in an exothermic reaction in other lithium cells.[11] As a result, LiFePO
4 cells are harder to ignite in the event of mishandling (especially during charge). The LiFePO
4 battery does not decompose at high temperatures.[17]

 

[Johns]

Is this a LiPO or a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery?(LifePO4)

Just added a LifePO4 to my van

Sorry I don’t know, it’s not a new type it’s been out a few years, my new Allpowers 372Wh has a digital display, it’s also slightly smaller, I guess they just keep improving them and have better safety features, no idea if both use the same batteries but just making me wonder if I should take it to France as I’m going on the tunnel and I have gas on board, can you imagine that going off while on there, see my mind can’t stop thinking of different situations now, maybe its no bad thing to be slightly over cautious.

 

[Dellmassive]

DONT TRY THIS AT HOME :

LIPO:

 

[Dellmassive]

LIFpo4 is the safer chemistry . . . . . stick with those batteries.

 

[Johns]

UPDATE:

Allpowers have been excellent in taking immediate action and offered a formal apology, they themselves were totally shocked at what happened, this is part of a reply I had from them I am sharing for your info. They have offered to buy back my new 372Wh one I bought but I will keep that as it seems to have upgraded protection, I just think I was the unfortunate one in a million, but don’t let that let you put your guard down, stay vigilant and treat these power packs with the utmost respect, there is a hell of a lot of stored energy in them and you have seen how it can unleash.

“After feedback from the supplier, the supplier analyzed that the reason may be the following four points:
1. The product has over-discharge protection, but it is within a certain range. If over-discharged repeatedly, it will cause internal short circuit of the battery. The battery protection board of the generator will be upgraded later to avoid the same problem.
2. The product is used in a harsh environment, which will affect the internal batteries of the product. Although the factory uses 5 A class battery chip, it may appear 0.1% of defective products. We will require suppliers and battery chip providers to inspect all batches of battery chips, and strive to eliminate the probability of 0.1%.
3. When the product or accessory exceeds the load range, there will be overload protection, but it is also in the rated range. If it is used for long-term overload, it may cause an internal short circuit of the product. Later, it will be emphasized in the manual and product details page to advise users not to overload them for multiple times.
4. The DC output terminal has excessive output protection, but the DC input terminal does not. When overcharged for a long time, it will cause an internal short circuit. We will require suppliers to add excessive protection to the DC input to avoid this.”

“We will pay a close attention to this and see what we could improve to prevent this from happening again.
1.For quality inspection, we will carefully inspect our inventories and strictly check the products before shipment. We have organized a special QC team by 5 employees to carefully inspect our products one by one in order to check whether the products have other potential problems. What we do is to make sure that all our products are in good condition and as described. We can guarantee that all our products meet the regulation on Amazon. Amazon sets out the highest standards towards product quality and customer satisfaction and that is also what we are working for.
2.For manufacture’s qualification, we have carefully investigated the background of the all parts suppliers and refused all the suppliers who are not reliable. Each product must have evidence that they are from trusted distributor and have the product quality certificate like CE. Our goal is to provide high quality product with competitive price to customers.”

I hope that helps in some way to put people’s mind at rest, but just remember the 0.01% could be out there, and don’t I know it! This was an older generation unit that although still for sale seems to have been superseded by the newer 372Wh with digital control and more enhanced safety features, I also bought this one a couple of months ago and will continue to use it with extreme vigilance, although Allpowers offered to take it back and refund me if I felt I couldn’t now use it.

They are refunding me for the cost via Amazon of the burnt out unit and also my incinerated plant trough which was also bought from Amazon, so have done all they could to put things right and speedily too!

Cheers,

 

[Dellmassive]

thats good to hear . . .

but it seems like a standard "damage Limitation" response, and to offer you a refund and a new plant pot is a very cheap option out (compared to what you could have done)

i love ALLPOWERS kit and have two of the 372wh units and love them, others on here also have bough one after seeing ours in action.

I also have 2x Valence Lifepo4 138A 12v Batteries . . . they are all branded makes and researched before purchase.

Having said that i purposely never went for that first gen unit (your one) due to the LIPO cells it used . . . . i thought it may have been a bit risky.

and now if i had have got one . . . . . . . i would still stop using it. 0.1% or not i dont trust the design or QC of the parts that are already out in the wild.

there is no way of them knowing exactly what caused the failure . . . all we know is the pouch cells shorted/vented/exploded/fire which may have been caused by any of the four point above.

. . . . . . .

Id say if you have one of those LIPO pack based units . . . . . Stop using it.

. . . . . . . .

Then take a look at the new Lifepo4 and 18650 cell chemistry . . .

. . . . . . .

But as mention tread all Batteries with respect, especially Lithium based batteries.


*************************

From my experience these are the IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT LITHIUM batteries:

DO NOT OVER CHARGE THEM,

DO NOT RUN THEM 100% FLAT,

STORE THEM AT 50% IF PUT INTO STORAGE,

USE THE CORRECT CHARGER / METHOD,

DO NOT SUBJECT THEM TO HIGH TEMPS (IN VAN/CAR/TENT/CAMPER ETC)

DO NOT SUBJECT THEM TO VERY LOW TEMPS/FREEZING (IN VAN/CAR/TENT/CAMPER ETC)

DONT LET THEM GET WET (IE OUT IN THE RAIN) UNLESS THEY ARE IP RATED

STICK WITH A KNOWN BRAND NAME,

REMEMBER YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR, SO CHEAP UNBRANDED IMPORTS MAY HAVE SUBSTANDARD PARTS THAT MAY HAVE FAILED QUALITY CONTROL WITH OTHER MANUFACTURERS.


STAY AWAY FROM LIPO CELLS.

***********************

 

[Johns]

I’m not a vindictive person, I’m retired and enjoy new technology, my reason for joining for the short term and posting here was to alert others and help people to keep safe, whether you have an expensive posh T6 or a make do van a life is a life and we are all out to enjoy what the world has to offer and have fun. The trick I have learned in life is to absorb as many experiences as possible whether by listening to what others have experienced and also myself and use that to keep safe, only a fool would disregard my experience, there must be something to take from it, even that things can happen so quickly, have a plan for fires, they can and do happen, have evacuation plans, don‘t block an exit with one of these, are your documents in a ‘grab bag’ if you need to ge out as this incident outdoor have destroyed my van and everything in it, and the list goes on!

I guess there are still loads of the 288 versions I had still out there all around the world, Allpowers have now withdrawn them from sale, if anyone has one be vigilant and as I said earlier note where the explosion, if it ever comes will go, the casing caused a tunnel effect creating a most powerful jet engine sound and force, if you don’t hear the quiet popping sounds, you have seconds from initial smoke to ferocious explosion, not enough time to pull over and get it out the vehicle, one end of the explosion incinerated a wicker plant pot and hit a low wall, but the other vented its fury in the space up to my house, luckily my double glazed back door and windows didn’t melt, but the after smoke damage took hours of cleaning and jet washing, vegetation behind the small wall was incinerated, so imagine that in a camper van.

I don’t know how to delete this account or if it would remove my posts so will leave it a few weeks, I’m off to France with the camper next Wed for 5 weeks, just SO glad I took the 288 out to use last weekend as I am all packed up, if that had gone off on the channel tunnel......well you just can’t imagine as I have gas on board as well though turned off before going on the tunnel.

Thanks for allowing me to post this on your forum, I have sneakily looked at other posts and there are some very knowledgable people on here and great info, so after deleting my account may keep a lookout for ideas.

Thanks,

 

[ThreeBridgeT6]

This should rightly cause concern to anyone using one of these models, and thanks to @Johns for coming onto the forum and making us aware of it. Please don't think you need to skedaddle @Johns - there's lots of really helpful people and information on here, and it's not a closed club, so stick around if you want to.

As I'm currently having my van converted and am including 2 LiFePO4 100Ah batteries in it, this incident has prompted me to do more research into the battery and charging technology, just to be sure that I'm not taking unnecessary risks. I've found the following guidance on using, charging and storing LiFePO4 batteries which is very much in accordance with @Dellmassive's advice above:
How to get the best out of your LiFePO4 batteries

I might be replicating information that's already available on the forum, but too much is better than too little in my view!

It could have been disastrous; thankfully it wasn't. However, I'll be paying a lot of attention to my setup, temperatures, charging conditions and fire control measures including checking number and types of fire extinguishers I carry after this. Enjoy France - safely!

 

[Johns]

UPDATE: Alllpowers have refunded me for the 288Wh unit that burst into flames, they have also agreed to take back 2 x 372Wh packs and 1 x 154Wh packs, I understand there has been some issues with the 372Wh ones and my wife is refusing to have any other products in the house or vehicles, they are refunding me for the further 3 units. I have also had a burnt hose replaced and a flower planter all only a few pounds but they have at least accepted responsibility, luckily nobody was injured and no further damage caused.

They are very concerned about the YouTube video, I am torn between not wanting to destroy their business and keeping people safe who have them, as such I would suggest that if anyone wants to keep a record of the event to worn others they download the video ASAP as I may be taking it down before I head to France next Wednesday, they have an active team of engineers stripping these units down to check, double and triple check all the components and any manufacturer who is supplying parts not to standard will not be used again, but the that doesn't help me or this with existing units, so if anyone mentions they have one on there please gently remind them to take great care.

Thanks again for your time,

 

[ThreeBridgeT6]

Better people know and can make their own informed decisions, rather than risk having something like that happen in a confined space with lives put at risk. Imagine that going off on a car ferry, the Eurostar or similar! It sounds as though they're taking it very seriously and acting responsibly. They need to establish the cause and demonstrate that they've eliminated it, and then people can buy once more with confidence.

 

[Dellmassive]

id leave it up for now. as above informed descisions etc . .

"I understand there has been some issues with the 372Wh " - any more info on this ?

 

[DXX]

Some years ago offshore oil installations started banning certain personal lithium powered devices from being brought onboard. Some ships also forbid unattended charging and even require the vessels Electrical Engineer to inspect them before they can be used. The mark ‘CE’ is meaningless these days.
In certain situations the risk outweighs the benefit.

 

[Johns]

id leave it up for now. as above informed descisions etc . .

"I understand there has been some issues with the 372Wh " - any more info on this ?

Hi, yes it has dodgy electrics and the Anderson cable doesn't work from the solar panel, I had exactly the same issue and they sent me a new cable, I had spent around £180 on one of their 100w folding solar panel and it has never worked. The concern is that they 'may' have been using components that are not up to standard without knowing, but I guess they should have known after all the complaints and even sending me a new Anderson cable knowing it would never work, so I am concerned that if one component is dodgy what else is. This guy loves the Allpowers units and does videos of them, but even he is getting concerned as can be seen in this video, go to 8 minutes to see the Anderson cable issue but if you watch the whole film you would never buy one, they have a lot to sort out in my opinion and I would personally never have one in my home or vehicle that's why they are ALL going back. They admit some parts were not up to standard thats good enough for me to reject them having seen the result of what a faulty part can do, I just don't believe I would be so lucky a second time!

I am not out to scare anyone, I just couldn't live with myself if I read in the newspaper that a young family had been burned to death because of one, I'm in a quandary of not over egging the whole incident and warning others to be VERY vigilant, I have put it on youtube with some help but not on the social media as I don't have that, but I think ANYONE who has one of these 288Wh ones, if it were me, would get rid of it safely. As for the 372Wh, well its a personal choice, do you trust the company, seems mine was the first we have heard about from this company, but how many others have been hushed up, I could have asked for any amount of money from what they said in their email, they are genuinely very very concerned, but I just wanted put right what had been damaged AND for them to take back the other 3, AND ensure it NEVER happens again. If you look at my film from the first initial visual puff of smoke, absolutely nothing before that OR any smell, it is a second or so before armageddon rains on you, no way on this earth would you get that out of your vehicle in time you would be chalked and blinded by that thick acrid smoke and in pure shock, I would suggest I was VERY VERY lucky with my gut instinct, but having seen what happened in hindsight I would have just ran and left it where it was, if that had exploded when I was holding it or I was on a campsite and there it down outside it could have burns caravans or set vehicle on fire, If I had earphone in with it by my head charging my iPad as I was and didn't hear that little popping sound our faces would be melted at a minimum as it was facing me and my 11 year old daughter, we were just SO SO SO lucky.

It's everyones personal call, you get one life live it, and learn from others missfortunes, BUT BE SAFE AND LISTEN TO YOUR GUT INSTINCT!

 

[Johns]

Better people know and can make their own informed decisions, rather than risk having something like that happen in a confined space with lives put at risk. Imagine that going off on a car ferry, the Eurostar or similar! It sounds as though they're taking it very seriously and acting responsibly. They need to establish the cause and demonstrate that they've eliminated it, and then people can buy once more with confidence.

I'm on the Eurotunnel on Wednesday and my wife has categorically stated she would not trade with any of their products in the car, she is still in shock after the incident still imagining what could have happened to her babies face, Ok she's not a baby she's 11 but a baby to my wife, anyway I'm not going over it, its just awful awful awful, you all now know and can imagine from what you have seen what could happen in different situations, my mate with the T6 is getting rid of his 372Wh, we bought them at the same time and I feel bad as I recommended them after I had been using the 288Wh, I saw it as an upgrade, he said he just cant imagine the damage and destruction it would do in his van and he said if he was asleep and was woken by the billowing smoke he couldn't get out in the second or so before the explosion and he thinks the confined space would make it even worse, he's emailed the seller and wants a refund, I don't think there has been an incident with one of them but from the faulty insides with the Anderson connectors what else could be wrong (see video I posted), he bought his through Amazon so may have some help from them.

 

[Johns]

This should rightly cause concern to anyone using one of these models, and thanks to @Johns for coming onto the forum and making us aware of it. Please don't think you need to skedaddle @Johns - there's lots of really helpful people and information on here, and it's not a closed club, so stick around if you want to.

As I'm currently having my van converted and am including 2 LiFePO4 100Ah batteries in it, this incident has prompted me to do more research into the battery and charging technology, just to be sure that I'm not taking unnecessary risks. I've found the following guidance on using, charging and storing LiFePO4 batteries which is very much in accordance with @Dellmassive's advice above:
How to get the best out of your LiFePO4 batteries

I might be replicating information that's already available on the forum, but too much is better than too little in my view!

It could have been disastrous; thankfully it wasn't. However, I'll be paying a lot of attention to my setup, temperatures, charging conditions and fire control measures including checking number and types of fire extinguishers I carry after this. Enjoy France - safely!

I'm wondering if you can line a storage box with a fire blanket material, that 'may' just give you the few seconds to escape if any of these lithium batteries do go up, I've been in war and maybe with life experiences a little less panicky than some people, I just dealt with the incident and put it out, but maybe some people would panic and that could cause more problems like pouring water on it.

 

[DXX]

I'm wondering if you can line a storage box with a fire blanket material, that 'may' just give you the few seconds to escape if any of these lithium batteries do go up, I've been in war and maybe with life experiences a little less panicky than some people, I just dealt with the incident and put it out, but maybe some people would panic and that could cause more problems like pouring water on it.

Where I worked they were in storage in a steel can filled with granulated vermiculite sealed with an explosion proof lid. Not very practical.
Whatever the solution is it needs a vent of a suitable size to prevent the box blowing apart, obviously the vent should exit outside the van.

 

[Johns]

Where I worked they were in storage in a steel can filled with granulated vermiculite sealed with an explosion proof lid. Not very practical.
Whatever the solution is it needs a vent of a suitable size to prevent the box blowing apart, obviously the vent should exit outside the van.

The good thing is from my experience we now know at least that if you see the smoke get the hell out of there, you only have seconds, some people without seeing that video might be waiting to see what happens next as I did watching it, I was just off centre of the jet flame and just got singed nose hairs, had it been facing me even at 6ft away I would have had severe burns, we also know how the casing directs the flames, goodness knows what happens to a normal lithium battery with no metal casing I guess it just one huge explosion if it does go.

 

[True Romance]

I was lying out on the grass in the garden with my 11yr old reading stuff on an iPad, temperature was 24 degrees and sunny, not roasting hot, had the iPad plugged in the usb socket and that was it, we were in the shade of a sun umbrella that sits in the centre of a garden table so we could read the screen and the power box was in the shade as well, if it had exploded where it was with an end facing us it would have melted our faces, the fumes were horrific and still linger in the garden, plants were incinerated. I don’t think it’s sunk in how lucky I was, but I just want others to be aware of how these types of things can go wrong, as I sai I may be the one in a million but you have to plan thing in case your number is called, my gut instinct saved me, had I taken no notice of the slight popping, had a music playing or earphones in I would not be hear today typing this! I’m not having a go at Allpowers as I have another 2 of their units, just lessons need to be learnt. I had an email this morning, they have a team investigating this as they are taking it seriously, maybe to try and get more safety features added but that doesn’t help those who already have one. All I can say is if you have one, watch where the explosion came out and don’t have that facing a human, you could be driving along and imagine that going off straight at you! I works also even think of having it in a fireproof box of some sorts, definitely have a fire blanket handy!

My mind keeps going back to what if, but hey I’m alive albeit with singed hairs and a constant smell of smoke in my nose, but hopefully sharing this will keep others safe, it’s all about being careful and understanding and managing risk, I just wouldn’t put it near gas bottles or a fuel tank which I admit I have in my camper without thinking.

I have been asked to remove the video from YouTube in case it creates panic, should I do this or leave it to alert others to the danger? if a young family got burnt alive I don’t think I could live with myself for not at least doing something to show how things can happen, the short film is just pure fact, not putting blame on anyone. Let me know your thoughts, thanks!

put the video back up to warn others. Hope you haven't been convinced to remove on the promise of a new unit?