Suspension Question

[welshbaron]

Looking for advice and thoughts.

I have a T32 VW T6 Kombi currently run on H&R lowering springs on 20" wheels running the correct load rated tyres.

Will switching over to B14s and ARB make much more of a difference? I have read the ARBs on the T32 are already stiff so will ARBS make a difference.

How will the ride on b14's compare to h&s springs?

Really trying to figure out if it's worth making these changes due to the costs involved!

Thanks all

 

[YellowHound]

B14s will give vastly improved body control, but won't change the handling balance.

H&R ARBS will significantly change the handling balance (in my experience) making the handling far more neutral (ie.e reducing the strong bias to understeer that is present as std).

Can't comment on the H&R springs as I have no experience of them.

 

[Wills]

@CRS Performance

 

[CRS Performance]

The upgrade on a T 32 anti roll bar is less noticeable than other vans because the T 32 already has stiffer ARB . a lot of money for smaller gains However the difference between springs and Coil over is of course the shocks , The shocks in a quality coil over is what makes the improvement . ( not the fact that you can change height )
If you have H&R springs already you just need the SHOCK bit to get a superb handling and extremely comfortable Van . Don't need to go the coil over route at all just buy a proper set of shocks we will adjust them to suit your van and driving style . You will love the difference and will save a lot of money .
The standard shocks cant cope with drops at all , and they certainly don't like the additional weight of the big wheels . We will adjust the KONI sport dampers to control those bigger wheels perfectly ( shocks are designed to control the movement of the unsprung mass of the car , that is the brakes, wheels etc )

 

[YellowHound]

I disagree on the impact on ARBs on a T32. My van is a T32 and I felt the H&R ARBs made a huge difference to the handling balance.

I did the B14s first and about a 1000 miles later the H&R ARBs.

 

[Insert Coin]

I disagree on the impact on ARBs on a T32. My van is a T32 and I felt the H&R ARBs made a huge difference to the handling balance.

I did the B14s first and about a 1000 miles later the H&R ARBs.

Same here on my T32, about 1000 miles on the standard springs/shocks and then I got the the B14's and then about 1000 more miles and fitted the arb's.

CRS is anti B14, he has his own agenda and his own preferred upgrade route.

 

[VanDamMan]

@CRS Performance ...Just been for drive to Hope cross ( Peak District) ...wow ....and gave my suspension a real workout ..twist and turns..lumps and bumps ..and the van was a joy to drive

T32 204 Koni dampers with 30mm eibach springs standard ARB on 18’s ( EBC yellow stuff pads) it’s a day van ..but we love it


So does BAM...he used to giggle around a lot while hanging from the mirror.. now...he enjoys it too

 

[Wills]

CRS is anti B14, he has his own agenda and his own preferred upgrade route.

I’ve followed many threads on this subject and there are many popular products out there to suit all needs and uses. It’s a mine field and I’ve read many a costly mistake made by forum lemmings.
To me, the above comments are rather derogatory and undermine Steve’s vast experience in the industry.
In my opinion Steve’s comments are factual and his recommendations are based on his vast experience and knowledge in the tuning business and not as a forum lemming.




@BognorMotors

 

[BognorMotors]

Looking for advice and thoughts.

I have a T32 VW T6 Kombi currently run on H&R lowering springs on 20" wheels running the correct load rated tyres.

Will switching over to B14s and ARB make much more of a difference? I have read the ARBs on the T32 are already stiff so will ARBS make a difference.

How will the ride on b14's compare to h&s springs?

Really trying to figure out if it's worth making these changes due to the costs involved!

Thanks all

We run a demo van with exactly the setup you are after, please come and have a go and make your own mind up. Its our most popular suspension upgrade. The ARB's make a massive difference to any of the weight rated vans - So much more car like, lighter steering, less body roll and less understeer.

Im sure you would find the difference from H&R to B14/ARB is like night and day.

Try as many setups as you can and make your own mind up.

Are you local to us?

 

[CRS Performance]

Same here on my T32, about 1000 miles on the standard springs/shocks and then I got the the B14's and then about 1000 more miles and fitted the arb's.

CRS is anti B14, he has his own agenda and his own preferred upgrade route.

Its hardly an agenda offering sound advise to customers , When you have met as many customers who are unhappy with B 14 s as I have, it is important to offer other options that have proved to be better. No one will argue with the success of the B14 up till now, but the harsh reality is that the manufacturer of the Transporter B 14 kit is now building a similar kit with KONI dampers . Chillijam Vans are the distributor of these and they will be very popular , I have fitted them and the KONI dampers make this a good option . I have been saying for a long time KONI technology is more comfortable and this development must surely support this point of view . We sell an amazing Coil over kit that is hands down better than the B 14 at similar pricing , but you will notice I didn't offer that solution because the member doesn't need to spend that kind of money after already buying springs .

The comments I make are based on engineering facts and 25 years of experience in the industry , I build 1000 's of shocks for top VW accessory companies as well as the VW factory In Uitenhage, SA . I have forgotten more than most know about suspension but read my posts carefully because I don't trash products but offer sensible alternatives to most . Judging by the massive turn around in my business recently I would suggest many people are taking on board what I recommend.
I do use B 16 Bilstein in our Track car and as I have said many times they are brilliant for that purpose . I also sell H&R anti roll bars and as a Race driver for over 30 years I fully understand the benefits , but what I am trying to do is offer a member a balanced solution to his problem with out blowing £2000.00 to find that the boy racer result wasn't what he was after .

 

[CRS Performance]

@CRS Performance ...Just been for drive to Hope cross ( Peak District) ...wow ....and gave my suspension a real workout ..twist and turns..lumps and bumps ..and the van was a joy to drive

T32 204 Koni dampers with 30mm eibach springs standard ARB on 18’s ( EBC yellow stuff pads) it’s a day van ..but we love it

View attachment 63826
So does BAM...he used to giggle around a lot while hanging from the mirror.. now...he enjoys it too

This is good news , so happy you are enjoying the results .

 

[YellowHound]

Its hardly an agenda offering sound advise to customers , When you have met as many customers who are unhappy with B 14 s as I have, it is important to offer other options that have proved to be better. No one will argue with the success of the B14 up till now, but the harsh reality is that the manufacturer of the Transporter B 14 kit is now building a similar kit with KONI dampers . Chillijam Vans are the distributor of these and they will be very popular , I have fitted them and the KONI dampers make this a good option . I have been saying for a long time KONI technology is more comfortable and this development must surely support this point of view . We sell an amazing Coil over kit that is hands down better than the B 14 at similar pricing , but you will notice I didn't offer that solution because the member doesn't need to spend that kind of money after already buying springs .

The comments I make are based on engineering facts and 25 years of experience in the industry , I build 1000 's of shocks for top VW accessory companies as well as the VW factory In Uitenhage, SA . I have forgotten more than most know about suspension but read my posts carefully because I don't trash products but offer sensible alternatives to most . Judging by the massive turn around in my business recently I would suggest many people are taking on board what I recommend.
I do use B 16 Bilstein in our Track car and as I have said many times they are brilliant for that purpose . I also sell H&R anti roll bars and as a Race driver for over 30 years I fully understand the benefits , but what I am trying to do is offer a member a balanced solution to his problem with out blowing £2000.00 to find that the boy racer result wasn't what he was after .

Interesting.

I don't at all consider myself at 54 to be a 'boy racer'. I too have spent a sizeable proportion of my working life around suspension systems - but this time those on aircraft. Vastly different criteria but nevertheless a suspension system consisting of a spring and a damper.

When I bought my T32 I was very unhappy with the ride and handling, tempered with expectations based on it being a van, built to carry stuff. At times it felt like being sat on a pogo stick, but then the van was effectively empty with no mass loading. As mostly leisure users our vans are unlikely to approach the weight limitations intended for them, especially with a T32. It was also set up to strongly understeer - something which I personally dislike strongly.

Why a T32 you might ask? - well largely for the larger brakes, and the greater margin for loading (I didn't know where I would end up conversion wise).

So, my aims for modifying the suspension were much improved body control (without a harsh ride) and to move the handling balance away from the strong understeer. I was uninterested in lowering the ride height to any significant degree.

I chose the B14s and had them fitted by Transporter HQ, who did an excellent job and were great to deal with. My B14s are set at their maximum height, so the minimum change from std ride height that can be achieved with them. I had no expectation of any changes in the handling balance from their fitment - I was after the body control. Fitting was at roughly 1100 miles from new. I felt that I had achieved my aims, without an uncomfortable ride.

I dove the van for about 1000 miles before I had the H&R ARBs fitted by a place in Bracknell. IIRC I had read about this company in one of the VW mags and they fitted the bars for not much more than I could buy the buys alone. IIRC the bars have 3 stiffness settings. I asked for them to be set at their 'mid' setting but was told that they would fit them at their stiffest and if I didn't like it they would change it FOC for me. Based on their experience this was how to set them. My drive home was something of a revelation - the difference in the handling balance was massive. The strong understeer had been replaced by a feeling of almost neutral handling (ultimately understeer though).

I'm now on circa 22k miles. In that time I have enjoyed the vastly improved performance of my van. Ride quality can be a very subjective thing and I don't find the B14s to be anything other than comfortable.

I'd love to know what the large number of clients who are unhappy with their B14s say they are unhappy with.

I am intrigued by the Koni technology. Anything that takes the peak off the transient inputs whilst maintaining good overall damping is a great idea. However my experience with Koni in the past hasn't been good - purely interns of the reliability and longevity of the product.

 

[CRS Performance]

Interesting.

I don't at all consider myself at 54 to be a 'boy racer'. I too have spent a sizeable proportion of my working life around suspension systems - but this time those on aircraft. Vastly different criteria but nevertheless a suspension system consisting of a spring and a damper.

When I bought my T32 I was very unhappy with the ride and handling, tempered with expectations based on it being a van, built to carry stuff. At times it felt like being sat on a pogo stick, but then the van was effectively empty with no mass loading. As mostly leisure users our vans are unlikely to approach the weight limitations intended for them, especially with a T32. It was also set up to strongly understeer - something which I personally dislike strongly.

Why a T32 you might ask? - well largely for the larger brakes, and the greater margin for loading (I didn't know where I would end up conversion wise).

So, my aims for modifying the suspension were much improved body control (without a harsh ride) and to move the handling balance away from the strong understeer. I was uninterested in lowering the ride height to any significant degree.

I chose the B14s and had them fitted by Transporter HQ, who did an excellent job and were great to deal with. My B14s are set at their maximum height, so the minimum change from std ride height that can be achieved with them. I had no expectation of any changes in the handling balance from their fitment - I was after the body control. Fitting was at roughly 1100 miles from new. I felt that I had achieved my aims, without an uncomfortable ride.

I dove the van for about 1000 miles before I had the H&R ARBs fitted by a place in Bracknell. IIRC I had read about this company in one of the VW mags and they fitted the bars for not much more than I could buy the buys alone. IIRC the bars have 3 stiffness settings. I asked for them to be set at their 'mid' setting but was told that they would fit them at their stiffest and if I didn't like it they would change it FOC for me. Based on their experience this was how to set them. My drive home was something of a revelation - the difference in the handling balance was massive. The strong understeer had been replaced by a feeling of almost neutral handling (ultimately understeer though).

I'm now on circa 22k miles. In that time I have enjoyed the vastly improved performance of my van. Ride quality can be a very subjective thing and I don't find the B14s to be anything other than comfortable.

I'd love to know what the large number of clients who are unhappy with their B14s say they are unhappy with.

I am intrigued by the Koni technology. Anything that takes the peak off the transient inputs whilst maintaining good overall damping is a great idea. However my experience with Koni in the past hasn't been good - purely interns of the reliability and longevity of the product.

As someone familiar with Suspension you will know the difference between a MONO tube and Dual tube Shock absorber , Mono tube dampers are going to be firmer because of the Hi pressure Gas in side . The reason we almost exclusively use MONO tube in our Race cars is because it is a very efficient technology but notoriously firmer . All the people I spoke to weren't keen on the firmness . It has to be said that the complaints were more prevalent from the women owners and wife's of the owners , when I asked these owners why they purchased a B14 kit they all said " recommendations on media from other van owners " read into that what you like . We have also experienced clients vans with knocking noises from the B 14 at the rear over speed humps and bad bumps in the road. replacing the kit with a similar type kit ( Coil over ) sorted this out . What I don't know is if the kit was faulty or if it was a quirk of the design .
Interesting comment about reliability and longevity of the Koni shocks , maybe you can expand on that ? , I have been a distributor of the product in SA for 20 years and our experience is in line with KONI world wide statistics with a warranty failure rate of 0.1 percent . We do of course experience poor fitment and abuse issues ( particularly from Our off road clients ) these problems don't get covered by any warranty ( this would go for any manufacturer )
By the way I am a Boy racer at 64 , and very used to sport suspension, I was a high speed driver instructor and still do regular track days. After 30 years of Racing VW's competitively I still get a buzz from it and can appreciate a good handling car. BUT
We have said many times , everyone's needs and desires are different and I try to give a balance opinion of what is available as an alternative to the heavily promoted B14 kit . I understand that owners who have shelled out over £ 2000 quid to get their vans handling well will brag about it, that is understandable. My vehicles have always had coil overs and uprated anti roll bars so I am one of the converted , but lets also remember we are talking about Leisure vehicles and ensure that forum members get a balanced opinion of everything that is available instead of beating one drum .

 

[YellowHound]

Perhaps I've just been unlucky with Koni. Had major problems with leaking dampers - even the replacements leaked after some miles

 

[welshbaron]

some great replies here and a lot to think about, will try and sum up what I think and hopefully, someone will fill the gaps.

1. B14's and ARB will provide you with better handling but comfort could be reduced depending on how much you lower?
2. KONI and H&R springs will provide better handling than in addition add more comfort than the B14's? But may not handle as well as the B14s?
3. If you have a T32 then ARBs may not be needed and may not provide a lot of difference?
4). Fitting a KONI setup is a lot less expensive than the B14's if you already have H&R springs? But if you needed to buy the springs as well is there still a big saving?
5). Will fitting any of kit push your wheels out of camber a lot? And if so can adjust be made to bring back inline to reduce tyre wear

Hope these questions can be answered and will help other people!

 

[YellowHound]

Comfort is entirely subjective so with that caveat.....

1) Not sure I would agree with 'comfort reduced' - compared with what? Std? I didn't find the std suspension on my T32 at all comfortable.
2) Down to opinion.
3) Given my experience I would disagree strongly.
4) OK
5) Not my experience at all. Why would fitting different springs and dampers necessarily change camber?

 

[BognorMotors]

Wow, this has escalated quickly, and unnecessarily :-(

I'm sure we are all individuals and can make our own mind up on what we consider firm and soft, and the same goes for comfortable. One persons interpretation of comfort is wildly different to another. For me personally I like a firmer ride, with control and neutral handling.

I've said this before, take advise and hear reviews from who has had it fitted previously, and try and get a good test drive in a vehicle fitted with what you are considering having fitted, before buying it. That's why we run vehicles with all the suspensions options we fit. We are lucky that we can offer suspension from H&R, Eibach, KW and Bilstein.

Our market for suspension, and who has it fitted ranges from 18 year old to 80 year olds, and we have fitted a variety of different setups to transporters, and every customer has been 100% happy with how their van ends up, in fact all with rave reviews. We are very open and honest in how we describe and run through the options, and if its not for them they can try something else. Most of our customers want to lower more than 40 mm, and almost in every case want it levelled out, so us this discounts using 40mm springs - Although we do fit them when required and requested according to budget.

This whole Koni vs all other suspension, doesn't make sense to me, Id love to try a set of konis first hand to compare, and see if we have a place for them with vans we sell and modify.

 

[Dieseldonkey]

@welshbaron What weight will you carrying? Are you converting to a camper in the future? Just from my experience with my own T32, carrying a full conversion. The standard ride is by no means plush. But with weight on board, ride quality is by no means a disaster either. Obviously subjective as stated above and having run 4 different tyres with 3 different profiles, I've noticed these to, depending on pressure, can make a difference to the ride.

But I wouldn't write off upgrading the ARBs. If I could have done my build again, these would have been much higher up the list. They do make a noticeable difference to body control and in that respect make the drive more enjoyable. Even on standard springs and dampers. In respect of comfort, they give a feeling of not being tipped out your seat. Also one of the cheaper mods you can do and fairly straight forward DIY job.

A few threads of folks experience if you do a search on ARB.

 

[welshbaron]

@Dieseldonkey - Currently H&R lowing springs and no loads. Hence me asking is it worth upgrading to B14s etc. Was looking for people's opinions but it seems to have moved into more of debate.

Cheers for the response.

 

[CRS Performance]

Wow, this has escalated quickly, and unnecessarily :-(

I'm sure we are all individuals and can make our own mind up on what we consider firm and soft, and the same goes for comfortable. One persons interpretation of comfort is wildly different to another. For me personally I like a firmer ride, with control and neutral handling.

I've said this before, take advise and hear reviews from who has had it fitted previously, and try and get a good test drive in a vehicle fitted with what you are considering having fitted, before buying it. That's why we run vehicles with all the suspensions options we fit. We are lucky that we can offer suspension from H&R, Eibach, KW and Bilstein.

Our market for suspension, and who has it fitted ranges from 18 year old to 80 year olds, and we have fitted a variety of different setups to transporters, and every customer has been 100% happy with how their van ends up, in fact all with rave reviews. We are very open and honest in how we describe and run through the options, and if its not for them they can try something else. Most of our customers want to lower more than 40 mm, and almost in every case want it levelled out, so us this discounts using 40mm springs - Although we do fit them when required and requested according to budget.

This whole Koni vs all other suspension, doesn't make sense to me, Id love to try a set of konis first hand to compare, and see if we have a place for them with vans we sell and modify.

Oli , I haven't been in a position to supply a set for you as stock hasn't kept up with the demand until recently , right now I have some spare so can send you a set , The deal is simple fit with an H&R spring kit and access results . If you aren't convinced simply return them No charge . . If you think there is a place in your expanding portfolio of products . Pay me and we will set up a supply chain for you to carry out fitments in the south ( at least 20 % of my customers are driving to me from the south coast and this doesn't make sense to me ) .
Change topic :-
Regarding the debate above , Indeed I do have big shoulders and can take a pounding from similarly experienced traders for sure . I find this particular Forum really good and like other forums I support they are great for my Business . Quality members and good debate , BUT surely the purpose of a forum is to debate products , get help from experts and listen to Owners rants , raves and experiences . ??
I do focus on comfort over LOW stance for sure. My thoughts on this have changed a little recently with our release of the KONI /H&R coil over kit and I have satisfied myself that a Van lowered up to 80mm can also have acceptable comfort using the KONI sport adjustable damping technology.
My big concern is when a customer buys a set of springs and maybe bigger wheels and finds the ride unacceptable . Most members recommend throwing the springs out and fitting Coil overs >?????? . Often these members are happy with the look , But not the ride . . A simple less expensive solution exists and its results are un disputed ( on this forum anyway ) . KONI sport shocks , its half the price of a coil over ( quality one anyway ) and offers hi levels of performance and comfort .
Let me know if you have a vehicle with H&R springs fitted and lets do this >>