Taxation Class Question

[Martinf]

Yes it was our vehicle! And the contract states “New Vehicle”.
It was registered to the converter when delivered to them on 12/04/18 although we paid the full cost of the base vehicle. Even the recorded date of transfer to us of registered keeper 06/07/18 is actually two days after we took delivery, on 04/07/18.
As I said, we were not pleased! But we plan to be in for the long term, love the van and want to move on from our displeasure.

 

[Teesix]

Yes it was our vehicle! And the contract states “New Vehicle”.
It was registered to the converter when delivered to them on 12/04/18 although we paid the full cost of the base vehicle. Even the recorded date of transfer to us of registered keeper 06/07/18 is actually two days after we took delivery, on 04/07/18.
As I said, we were not pleased! But we plan to be in for the long term, love the van and want to move on from our displeasure.

Like I said before, if there's a name other than yours as the first registered keeper then you have bought a second hand vehicle, not new. It is illegal for dealers to state a car is new if it has been pre-registered and it doesn't matter if the car has 1 or a 1000 miles on the clock. The sale of goods act protects you against such practices by providing assurance that goods must be described correctly. With your purchase this obviously hasn't been the case.

The next person to buy your van will the the 3rd keeper and will expect the price to reflect this. How much that price is largely depends upon the general depreciation and the desirability of the vehicle in the open market. As VW vans depreciate relatively slowly you probably haven't lost that much, but you will have lost something.

A good way to look at it is to compare two identical vehicles on a dealer's forecourt, same age and mileage - one with 1 former keeper and the other with two or three. The model with 3 registered keepers will be slightly 'less desirable' to buyer's than the model with one former owner and the dealer would therefore need to price it accordingly. However, as cars gets older it is expected that there have been former owners and the issue tends to diminish over that period. As you're intending to keep the van for the long term you shouldn't be unduly affected but it's worth mentioning nonetheless as dealers have been doing this trick for years.

I say these things not to brow beat you, rather as a warning to other potential new customers who may inadvertantly buy a vehicle which is not 'as described' and therefore be worth less than they expected.

In my previous job I was responsible for providing Trading Standards with an opinion on the value of vehicles that had been sold as new but were actually self-registed (2nd hand) models. I would then be reqiured to give evidence to the courts as an expert witness and during that time, both Trading Standards and the courts took a very dim view of these dealer practices and always ruled in favour of the buyer.

Caveat Emptor!

 

[Martinf]

They know we were most unhappy and I think bear it against us!
There were other issues around the registration too but not for the here and now.

 

[Teesix]

They know we were most unhappy and I think bear it against us!
There were other issues around the registration too but not for the here and now.

On the bright side you still have a lovely van that will give you many years of happy motoring. It's all good in the end!

 

[Davenjo]

On the bright side you still have a lovely van that will give you many years of happy motoring. It's all good in the end!

....having seen it a couple of times - it is a very nice van!!

 

[Pocc]

It was registered to the converter when delivered to them on 12/04/18 although we paid the full cost of the base vehicle. Even the recorded date of transfer to us of registered keeper 06/07/18 is actually two days after we took delivery, on 04/07/18.
As I said, we were not pleased! But we plan to be in for the long term, love the van and want to move on from our displeasure.

This is because of type approval and yes the converter has mis-sold the product if he stated it was a 'new' van and hence you would expect to be the first registered keeper.

Legally, to have the registration issued as 'New at first registration' in the customer's name with body type 'Motor caravan' would have required the converter to purchase an M1 van derivative with an incomplete Certificate of Conformity. The converter would then have to supply type approval paperwork at registration (either EWVTA, NSSTA or IVA) for a 'completed' certificate of conformity.

Change of body type to 'Motor Caravan' with a pre-registered vehicle is a submission of photographs and documentary evidence to DVLA which is a much simpler exercise.

That your van was not first registered as a motor caravan in your name is a workaround/cop out out by the converter to avoid having to go through type approval - if he definitely did not inform you of this process at point of sale you have been misled. You cannot sell 'New' vehicles without type approval since 2011.

Teesix is spot on in that you have been sold a second hand vehicle; regardless of the mileage or whether the only ever bum in the seat before yours was a German putting it on the transport. There are other implications to buying a 2nd hand vehicle - for example a lot of insurance companies will cover full replacement value of a vehicle under 1 year old IF you are the first registered keeper, some manufacturers warranties don't transfer (although this isn't the case with VW) etc.

This doesn't mean that it is a poor conversion or an unsafe van - just that it was not a new motor caravan when sold to you. If you were indeed mis sold the van, you have a couple of choices: demand your money back or seek through small claims any 'losses' you have incurred.

In my experience of selling campers, there is much less emphasis placed on number of previous keepers as there is with cars. Nowadays with the number of pre-registered cars/vans hitting the market, I think it is of negligible value being '1 owner'. If I had to put a figure on the decrease in value due to having 2 keepers rather than 1, I'd say in the order of a thousand pounds max.

 

[Martinf]

Many thanks for the input guys. From above it would appear they were intent on the “simpler exercise” of registering an N1 van then changing the body type later.

The whole Registration process failed in many other ways too and was a disappointing and unsatisfactory experience but we do now have the Campervan we wanted and carrying the registration we originally intended

 

[Pocc]

Many thanks for the input guys. From above it would appear they were intent on the “simpler exercise” of registering an N1 van then changing the body type later.

The whole Registration process failed in many other ways too and was a disappointing and unsatisfactory experience but we do now have the Campervan we wanted and carrying the registration we originally intended

Your welcome martinf - main thing as you say is you've got the van you wanted. Just one more thing worth checking as it gets missed by a lot of converters when they do the change of body type - does it show the correct number of seats? Once again, if this isn't updated from say 3 to 5 and you have an accident with 5 on board, there are insurance implications.

 

[Davenjo]

...Just one more thing worth checking as it gets missed by a lot of converters when they do the change of body type - does it show the correct number of seats? Once again, if this isn't updated from say 3 to 5 and you have an accident with 5 on board, there are insurance implications.

Good point - sure I checked when I originally got it but your comment was enough to send me scurrying off to find my V5 - phew!!!

 

[Martinf]

... your comment was enough to send me scurrying off to find my V5 - phew!!!

Me too and pleased to read it has been changed from 3 to 4. Where the third person would have sat originally though beats me as it only ever had 2 seats. But all correct now at 4

 

[Salty Spuds]

Surely the way to do this would have been to register the van from new in the name of the OP. Or am I missing summat?? I bought a van, registered it in my name, sent it to the converter who then re re-registered it as a Motor Caravan. It still shows me as the one & only keeper.

 

[oldiebut goodie]

Basically that is how mine was done, I don't see why the converter above registered it in their name at all.
Unless they do not have the neccessary qualifications for type approved modifications ( nssta and all the others).
I used one of the few converters that have the highest VW etc accreditations - it may have cost me more but it is full on safety tested on all alterations.

 

[rod_vw]

This is because of type approval and yes the converter has mis-sold the product if he stated it was a 'new' van and hence you would expect to be the first registered keeper.

Legally, to have the registration issued as 'New at first registration' in the customer's name with body type 'Motor caravan' would have required the converter to purchase an M1 van derivative with an incomplete Certificate of Conformity. The converter would then have to supply type approval paperwork at registration (either EWVTA, NSSTA or IVA) for a 'completed' certificate of conformity.

Change of body type to 'Motor Caravan' with a pre-registered vehicle is a submission of photographs and documentary evidence to DVLA which is a much simpler exercise.

That your van was not first registered as a motor caravan in your name is a workaround/cop out out by the converter to avoid having to go through type approval - if he definitely did not inform you of this process at point of sale you have been misled. You cannot sell 'New' vehicles without type approval since 2011.

Teesix is spot on in that you have been sold a second hand vehicle; regardless of the mileage or whether the only ever bum in the seat before yours was a German putting it on the transport. There are other implications to buying a 2nd hand vehicle - for example a lot of insurance companies will cover full replacement value of a vehicle under 1 year old IF you are the first registered keeper, some manufacturers warranties don't transfer (although this isn't the case with VW) etc.

This doesn't mean that it is a poor conversion or an unsafe van - just that it was not a new motor caravan when sold to you. If you were indeed mis sold the van, you have a couple of choices: demand your money back or seek through small claims any 'losses' you have incurred.

In my experience of selling campers, there is much less emphasis placed on number of previous keepers as there is with cars. Nowadays with the number of pre-registered cars/vans hitting the market, I think it is of negligible value being '1 owner'. If I had to put a figure on the decrease in value due to having 2 keepers rather than 1, I'd say in the order of a thousand pounds max.

Thanks for that explanation, it's the best I have seen.
I have bought and converted five campers since 2004 and in all but one case (that was a new, supplied to my order window van) they have been pre-reg vehicles. The current T6 had a total of 17 miles on the clock when I bought it. In all cases I have never had reason to consider any depreciation due to my name not being the first on the V5C. All have had their body type changed to 'Motor Caravan' on completion of the conversion without any problem or queries from the DVLA. Neither have I had any serious problems with insurance of a 'self-build'.
The comment about number of seats is very valid although I have received vans from dealers with the wrong number of seats on the V5C at original registration!

Rod