Victron (#TeamBlue) Advanced Systems + VRM - How We Done It -

[Rids]

Post #70 is wrong. The charger didn't stop outputting. My 300w water heater cut in and the dc-dc was marginally outpaced!

I'm going to say something here which is controversial...... I think that the Victron Orion DC-DC Chargers are potentially dangerous when operating in bulk for anything other than a brief period in a well ventilated locker!

I've been buying these Orion chargers and using them for years in boats where there is an extended distance between a vessel's domestic battery bank and a smaller AGM slave bank at the front of the vessel for Bow thruster and windlass.... (Saved running massive expensive battery cables) BUT:

I have only today realised just how hot these things get when they are in bulk for more than half an hour or so.

This is because on my install I have put in a relay from the ignition feed which turns on a big 300w draw in the form of a water heater. I realised that this is a big draw and so I have used a Cerbo GX to switch the heater on when battery is 100% charged and off when the leisure battery is less than 95% charged.

The benefit of this system is that in addition to the engine heating the water, my set up allows the solar to also heat the water with any energy which would ordinarily be wasted. This has proved successful in giving hot water pretty much all the time and I generally have my battery at 95%.

The problem is that if the charger stays in bulk nearly all the time with the engine running it gets what I would consider dangerously hot. My charger today was measured with an infra red temp gun at 120 degrees on the heat sink and 102 degrees on the front of the plastic box.

That is mental as mine isn't under my seat, but mounted vertically on a board. I am worried that this thing could cause a fire and will try another one to see if that runs cooler, but has anyone else experienced dc-dc chargers which are too hot to handle?

I like the heater strategy, but as you say it will hold your Orion in bulk mode as it’s all going to the heater and hasn’t any left to charge the battery.
I’m hoping one day to heat water similarly but by detection that the solar is backing off due to a “full” battery….

 

[Soundz]

@Samro.... Sam..........somewhat disconcerting reading your post..............I'm moving towards the end of of a SB install in a T5 using preddy much all victron gear 12 12 30 12 1200 inverter BMV 712 and a little 75/15 MPPT........awaitiing a 230 roamer to drop,I know it's in blighty..................... I watched this recently.....................

I have always had concerns about the B2B and heat under a SB................. after watching the above I've added this https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0831LF5JR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

to the LHS of this
_S2I2309 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

Basically it fitted the hole and because of the amp draw II figured it would be fairly powerful.......it shift some air ,we have had it running. I've wired it into the DC circuit as something we can switch on manually I figure we can work out fairly easily when the roamer is going to be sucking amps from the B2B

I don't have you guys leccy intellect .......... I know it..................so wiring it into the van concerned me if you can tell me how on a 2006T5 or you @Dellmassiive and show me a way with maybe a temp sensitiive relay,then cool. But my simple logic was is if the roamer is low on charge the B2B will work hard get hot ,so i'll flick a switch and a fan will blow.... sadly I haven't got a pic yet of it installed I'm under the cosh right now

anyways thanks for the awareness post
cheers

stu

 

[Dellmassive]

if i was doing a cooling fan controller . . .

i would fit something like this . .

id set the fan to come on around 50degc. . . .


you use the relay to break the 12v pos power to the blower fan

https://amzn.to/3IEdexy

 

[Samro]

I like the heater strategy, but as you say it will hold your Orion in bulk mode as it’s all going to the heater and hasn’t any left to charge the battery.
I’m hoping one day to heat water similarly but by detection that the solar is backing off due to a “full” battery….

Exactly but that is ok for me, as there is 400w of solar too, so the last few percent of battery charge should get there in the end unless the DC-DC stops giving the 300w I need to run. If it does then the water heater will switch off when battery depletes to say 95%.

BTW- Re your comment about the solar backing off when battery is full; You could pretty much do that already. You could do this by tricking the GX device into thinking it has a genset, but simply use the "conditions" to switch a load off or on to suit your requirements.

Here is how.
In the Remote Console on the Cerbo GX or Venus GX, go to settings and change the relay use as "Generator start/stop":



Next go settings-generator start stop:


Make sure auto start is enabled:


Then go to settings-conditions to set the conditions. So that the "genset" turns off at 100% charge and on when the battery is depleted to say 95%. (This is more reliable than using voltage as the trigger, because the load will cause a voltage dip and create problems if you don't use battery %.)



If you wanted, you could set up quiet hours and so the water only heats in a morning, leaving the afternoon sun to leave you batteries at a minimum 99% at sundown.

The above settings will trigger relay 1 on the GX device according to the conditions that you set.

The N/C relay port needs to be used, as the idea is that when the "genset is running", whatever big load you are powering is off.
IE- Genset start=load off

You can take this GX relay to switch whatever you like. (Via a heavy duty relay of a suitable size.)

 

[Samro]

@Samro.... Sam..........somewhat disconcerting reading your post..............I'm moving towards the end of of a SB install in a T5 using preddy much all victron gear 12 12 30 12 1200 inverter BMV 712 and a little 75/15 MPPT........awaitiing a 230 roamer to drop,I know it's in blighty..................... I watched this recently.....................

I have always had concerns about the B2B and heat under a SB................. after watching the above I've added this https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0831LF5JR/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

to the LHS of this
View attachment 164823_S2I2309 by Stuart Philpott, on Flickr

Basically it fitted the hole and because of the amp draw II figured it would be fairly powerful.......it shift some air ,we have had it running. I've wired it into the DC circuit as something we can switch on manually I figure we can work out fairly easily when the roamer is going to be sucking amps from the B2B

I don't have you guys leccy intellect .......... I know it..................so wiring it into the van concerned me if you can tell me how on a 2006T5 or you @Dellmassiive and show me a way with maybe a temp sensitiive relay,then cool. But my simple logic was is if the roamer is low on charge the B2B will work hard get hot ,so i'll flick a switch and a fan will blow.... sadly I haven't got a pic yet of it installed I'm under the cosh right now

anyways thanks for the awareness post
cheers

stu

That fan of yours looks great.
I am not over complicating my problem as my dc-dc is switched by my ignition feed and I shall take the power from the same relay that switches my water heater. This way the fans are powered from my leisure battery and I can easily add a timer relay if I feel I need the fan to run longer after the ignition is off.

 

[Rids]

if i was doing a cooling fan controller . . .

i would fit something like this . .

id set the fan to come on around 50degc. . . .


you use the relay to break the 12v pos power to the blower fan

https://amzn.to/3IEdexy

View attachment 164832View attachment 164834View attachment 164833

Looks a tidy on/off solution.

The PC case fan controllers & fans are designed to keep the fan ticking over slowly up to a programmable temperature then increase the fan speed proportionally with temperature up to a second value, also programmable.
The fans are also designed to run quiet even when at full speed.
Some controllers include an alarm Buzzer too…
these are some possibles I spotted…

Controller on ebay

fan on ebay

I’m gonna do this, after upcoming trip to Scotland. I’ll post a “how I did it”. Will have to make sure the sensor is well attached on the Orion heat sink and ideally not directly in the fan airflow.

I also want a convenient on/off for the Orion as it seems a bit mad to have it working away early mornings filling up the battery, ultimately using diesel as it’s energy source, on the many days when the solar will do it later anyway…
I’m imagining a a momentary push button, some sort of latching relay on the motor run signal. Press it once and it holds the Orion off until the the next ignition on/off when the relay would reset…. any thoughts?

 

[Rids]

Exactly but that is ok for me, as there is 400w of solar too, so the last few percent of battery charge should get there in the end unless the DC-DC stops giving the 300w I need to run. If it does then the water heater will switch off when battery depletes to say 95%.

BTW- Re your comment about the solar backing off when battery is full; You could pretty much do that already. You could do this by tricking the GX device into thinking it has a genset, but simply use the "conditions" to switch a load off or on to suit your requirements.

Here is how.
In the Remote Console on the Cerbo GX or Venus GX, go to settings and change the relay use as "Generator start/stop":

View attachment 164835

Next go settings-generator start stop:
View attachment 164837

Make sure auto start is enabled:
View attachment 164838

Then go to settings-conditions to set the conditions. So that the "genset" turns off at 100% charge and on when the battery is depleted to say 95%. (This is more reliable than using voltage as the trigger, because the load will cause a voltage dip and create problems if you don't use battery %.)

View attachment 164846

If you wanted, you could set up quiet hours and so the water only heats in a morning, leaving the afternoon sun to leave you batteries at a minimum 99% at sundown.

The above settings will trigger relay 1 on the GX device according to the conditions that you set.

The N/C relay port needs to be used, as the idea is that when the "genset is running", whatever big load you are powering is off.
IE- Genset start=load off

You can take this GX relay to switch whatever you like. (Via a heavy duty relay of a suitable size.)

I’d hoped the GX would be able to do it…,
I’ve much to learn about what it can & can’t do.

My girlfriend was recently interested in when the van would be finished…. My puzzled look and repeating “finished? what does that mean” was answer enough.

 

[Dellmassive]

All very good options.

But my thoughts were.....

It gets too hot. It's huge, It's only 30A. The Renogy dcc50s is better.

So I swapped it out.

Running fans and a cooling solutions was over complicating thing for me.

So I now run a better charger, that has more power, charges faster and stays cooler...... No fans needed.

But I get it, that if you want to stay with the Orion some kind of forced cooling is needed.


The on/off stat and 12v blower fan is an easy solution..... But will be noisy.

The pc fans are 4pin pwm controlled so can have variable speed...

Plus if you use a larger fan it will be almost silent.... Say 150mm.

....

So maybe have the 12v on/off stat switching on a pwm fan controller. ... Then have a large fan running at slow speed =. Good cooling and Silent.

 

[Dellmassive]

also want a convenient on/off for the Orion as it seems a bit mad to have it working away early mornings filling up the battery, ultimately using diesel as it’s energy source

That could be interesting as auto VsR feature will start the dc charger when it sees the starter battery voltage rise from the engine running.

The ign feed isn't an on/off as such . It's more a low battery cut off which stops the charger cycling during stop/start events.

 

[Dellmassive]

[Guide] DC-DC Charger (for leisure battery) -- How I Done It --

@Farnorthsurfer did you set the Dc-dc to lithium mode for the TN100 battery? Also have you got any more BM2 views showing more days? Yes the unit is set to Lithium profile. Easy enough to do when it was powered up. Yesterday was a flat line all day as it just sat on the drive. Back to work...

www.t6forum.com

 

[Skyliner33]

All very good options.

But my thoughts were.....

It gets too hot. It's only 30A. The Renogy dcc50s is better.

So I swapped it out.

Running fans and a cooling solutions was over complicating thing for me.

So I now run a better charger, that has more power, charges faster and stays cooler...... No fans needed.

But I get it, that if you want to stay with the Orion some kind of forced cooling is needed.


The on/off stat and 12v blower fan is an easy solution..... But will be noisy.

The pc fans are 4pin pwm controlled so can have variable speed...

Plus if you use a larger fan it will be almost silent.... Say 150mm.

....

So maybe have the 12v on/off stat switching on a pwm fan controller. ... Then have a large fan running at slow speed =. Good cooling and Silent.

Hi, would you use the MPPT on the renogy or still used the victron?

 

[Dellmassive]

@Skyliner33

I would use a separate Victron mppt... As they are the best.

Also when you add solar to the Renogy it splits to 25/25A so unless you fit a switch to the PV side your 50A charger will drop to 25A engine + whatever solar you have.

 

[Skyliner33]

@Skyliner33

I would use a separate Victron mppt... As they are the best.

Also when you add solar to the Renogy it splits to 25/25A so unless you fit a switch to the PV side your 50A charger will drop to 25A engine + whatever solar you have.

Thanks. I remember that now. My solar is only plugged camp site set up atm.

 

[Rids]

Is this normal...
Below is my starter battery voltage whilst the van was parked on the drive yesterday, all off…
I’m concerned by the repeated dips, these are not related to the fridge cycling at all.
In fact I found that the Orion is firing up dumping some charge into the leisure then switching off again as it has pulled the input voltage down again.
Playing with the input lock-out voltages confirmed this

It was set up with the engine run signal, (12V when running) which previously triggering the OE second battery charging relay, fed into the H control pin and the Auto detect switched off: in my thinking it should only ever start when the engine was running.




At about 10:00 this am, I switched it back to the auto detect ( H linked to L) & enabled and got this today..
The glitches are all gone.
The rise is thanks to the Mutiplus trickle charging the starter battery.



So are the intermittent Orion starts normal or did I have the BCM control wiring wrong?

I originally had then engine run signal fed into both H & L pins as the Victron data suggests, but then glitches then were worse...

All comments gratefully received.

 

[Dellmassive]

the above looks like the Orion is cycling on/off as the starter battery voltage rises. ( Auto VSR feature? - charger seeing starter battery voltage rise to the switchon point - regardless of H/L pin setup)


+++++++

there was an error in early install guides

the link between H & L is for remote AUTO mode. ( closed it ON/AUTO)




+++++


or



++++

you can have H or L connection, ( H referes to HIGH volts ie 12v trigger and L is for LOW or 0v trigger)

so eithe give the H pin a switched _+12v for ON,

or

give the L pin a switched 0v ground signal.


both with the LINK removed.







.
..

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger_-_Isolated/Orion-Tr_Smart_DC-DC_Charger-en.pdf

 

[Samro]

Difficult to get a decent photo, but a single tiny fan and the offsetting the heat sink by 15mm has reduced the heat...... I think! I can't be sure as the dc-dc was replaced at the time of fitting the fan and the offset bushes! I am happier though.


The fan is a bit buried due to space on the back board, but it is pushing a small jet of air
directly behind the heat sink.


The heat sink was 48 degrees after 1.5 hours of charger on bulk. The case was fairly consistently 47-48 degrees.


I also ordered an extra big fan using @Soundz link. Not got it yet but it looks like a bit of a monster, and I am intrigued that see what it is like! Certain I'll find a use for it!

 

[Dellmassive]

fyi . .

this was my Orion install before.


note the BCM switched +12v signal connected to the H pin with the link removed.

[Guide] DC-DC Charger (for leisure battery) -- How I Done It --

DC-DC Charger (for Leisure battery) -- How I Done It -- ************************************************** Dellmassive`s -- "how I Done It" -- Thread ************************************************** Kit List And Stuff -- How I Done It & What I Use --...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[Soundz]

if i was doing a cooling fan controller . . .

i would fit something like this . .

id set the fan to come on around 50degc. . . .


you use the relay to break the 12v pos power to the blower fan

https://amzn.to/3IEdexy

View attachment 164832View attachment 164834View attachment 164833

Dell why set the temp so high surely if the vic B2B runs more efficiently at a lower temp( from vid) one should aim for that lower temp?

with your linky above ."12V power interface" links to DC FB? ( in my case,sure plausibly not the best way as it's running off the roamer not van but it's simpler for me)
out put relay will run the fan pos an' neg?

Have I understood that?

So me fan runs @ 2.4 A so that'll be a 5A fuse?
Mate I hear you on the renorgy DC 50......but I didn't have that nouce at the time I bought.....I saw the post in pane 97............and don't have a lot of spare cash ....so even though the renorgy seems a better option ........I'd really like to try the orion make the best of what I have before shelling out again

many thanks

 

[Dellmassive]

@Soundz

yes you are correct . . . . id drop it to 40degC. ( from 50)


it looks like it derates the power at temps . . . above 40degc ( i thought it was 50degc . . . not 40degc)



Operating temperature range -20 to +55 °C (derate 3 % per °C above 40 °C)









..





..

Orion-Tr DC-DC Converters Isolated - Victron Energy

Provide a stable DC output voltage using the, easy to install, Orion DC-DC Inverter from Victron Energy. Find a dealer near you.

www.victronenergy.com

.

 

[Samro]

Dell why set the temp so high surely if the vic B2B runs more efficiently at a lower temp( from vid) one should aim for that lower temp?

with your linky above ."12V power interface" links to DC FB? ( in my case,sure plausibly not the best way as it's running off the roamer not van but it's simpler for me)
out put relay will run the fan pos an' neg?

Have I understood that?

So me fan runs @ 2.4 A so that'll be a 5A fuse?
Mate I hear you on the renorgy DC 50......but I didn't have that nouce at the time I bought.....I saw the post in pane 97............and don't have a lot of spare cash ....so even though the renorgy seems a better option ........I'd really like to try the orion make the best of what I have before shelling out again

many thanks

I received my big fan today and I have to say how perfect it is to cool the dc-dc. I will fit mine tomorrow, but couldn't resist checking it out today. It's too big to fit under the heat sink of my DC-DC, but I already did that last night with my smaller 3D printer fan.
I am going to fit this tomorrow with a 5 A fuse to simply blow in the general area of the DC-DC charger when ignition is on.
I think that fitting a thermostatIc switch is unnecessary as simply fitting this to run when the ignition is on is as good as it need to be in my opinion.