VTA: The Future of Hilo Sport Roof

[amo1968red]

Have you got cupboards on the other side or have HiLo removed the bolt entirely?

Cupboards bud...

 

[Bav]

I do use it...although I'll be honest and say that I don't think it's actually doing much. It's certainly not pulling the roof tight to the bodywork (unlike the front bolt x2 and central catch, which absolutely do). That said, the roof looks watertight at the rear, it's just that even with the bolt at it's tightest, there's a couple mm of play.

And the bolt is situated in the passenger rear corner, so I'm with you on the OCD...I'd gotten past it until you brought it up <pfft>

Cheers bud.

It does make me think that if the bolt is doing something, that something should be applied to both sides of the roof(?!)... but hey-ho.

Apologies for opening up old wounds.

 

[Deaky]

Potentially, it's stopping the back of the roof bouncing/rattling if you were to hit a pot hole, unlike the front ones that keep it tucked down stopping the wind getting underneath at 70mph. I took mine off pretty soon after it was fitted and before I fitted the electric rams. I've never noticed any appreciable difference.

 

[Dellmassive]

its here:

Dellmassive`s Camper Van Adventure

I’ll get the part number you need for the brackets in minute.

www.t6forum.com

+++

The NEW HiLo HORIZON sport Roof has been announced


.

thanks to @Martin Stockwell for the heads up - Future of elevating roofs - Horizon

thanks to @Visiontech Automotive

its here:

 

[seewhy]

Well that's a masterclass in obfuscation

and as such it was unfortunate that HiLo was left picking up the pieces regarding warranty due to ill-fitting roofs as these installers were unable to solve these issues themselves.
As a manufacturer of the product, HiLo were not setup for such an influx of warranty repairs and unfortunately lead to bad news travelling around social media stating poor customer service without any real detail of why.

I almost felt sorry for HiLo when I read this. And then I remembered... They're the manufacturer and when the roof has manufacturing faults it is their responsibility to fix them. And a if you make product that can so frequently be fitted badly it has to be down to poor training, poor choice of people being certified as fitters, or poor products, or possibly a combination? Mine was fitted at HiLo in Preston...

HiLo have since made the decision to remove themselves from the UK market as distributors and installers.

Um, that's terrible spin verging on an untruth at best a half-truth. HiLo went into Creditors Voluntary Liquidation owing around £950,000 having shortly before sold the assets to their parent company, weirdly owned and controlled by the very same directors as HiLo.

VisionTech have never had a problem with a roof that hasn’t been easily resolved or had been down to misuse or lack of maintenance

Lucky not to have fitted the Surf roof then. Or was it just my fault for misusing my roof in the rain or not stopping it from self-destructing?

that we have been able to secure the parts from the manufacturer

That manufacturer being the parent company of HiLo - All Things Custom Ltd. and probably IP Precision Fabrication Ltd. both of which are owned and controlled by the same directors as HiLo?

So those new roofs, even if they are marketed as something different, are based on the IP of HiLo and made by the same people that ran HiLo into the ground. Available therefore by having gone bust, written off HUGE debts, left customers with vehicles not fit for purpose, and carried on regardless. Unless someone can tell me different.

I know that VisionTech and Horizon Poptop roofs are not HiLo, but they are putting money into the directors' pockets and benefiting from those of us that have suffered at the hands of HiLo. Personally I wouldn't buy anything from them for those reasons. I was a customer of HiLo. They failed on so many levels - and the real detail of why is on this forum - just look up my posts.

 

[Deleted Member]

I think you’re preaching to the converted with that post above, everybody knows that the two brothers are a pair of complete and utter tnucs.

I’d be stunned if VTA were having anything at all to do with those two tnucs again, even if it is just the supply of materials.

VTA won’t risk their reputation, nor Surf Bus, Jaibow or some of the other Horizon dealers if there’s even a whiff of ex HiLo directors supplying parts for the new Horizon roof.

 

[seewhy]

I’d be stunned if VTA were having anything at all to do with those two tnucs again, even if it is just the supply of materials.

Please be prepared to be stunned. All Things Custom Ltd own the assets of HiLo Roof Company Ltd (including the designs / patents as far as I can tell). IP Precision Engineering Ltd supplied (some of) the parts to HiLo. Both of these companies are controlled by the directors of HiLo - it is in the public domain on Companies House website.

I drew this little diagram a while ago to try to get my head around the relationships between different companies who are my fellow creditors to HiLo (!). It is based on the liquidation report filed by HiLo Roof Company Ltd, available on Companies House website...



So when Horizon Poptop Roofs / VTA says it's not the HiLo roof, they are technically correct. They are, however, dealing with companies under the control of the directors. That was the point of the post.

Unless they can set the record straight. I will happily retract my posts / comments when it is demonstrated that I'm wrong. I am only interested in fact here, not opinion about whether those directors are in fact Tunnocks (that is what your spell check changed for you, right?). But I guess you have a point, the reputations of those companies are on the line. It's more than a whiff as far as I can see...

Whilst you might be right that I am preaching to the converted, I don't appear to be preaching to the informed. That's not a slur, just a (re)turn of phrase. I believe that people on this forum who are salivating over a new roof need to know where it's come from and how much it has cost some of us. It can't be washed clean with a change of name.

 

[Dellmassive]

@Visiontech Automotive have the perfect opportunity to state there case here.

 

[Loz]

@Visiontech Automotive have the perfect opportunity to state there case here.

Except they can't unless they sign up as a Trade member. (@Dellmassive unless they PM you and you post it up for them)

 

[Deleted Member]

VTA/Horizon should be giving zero money back to those conmen, unless there’s some kind of licensing agreement for the design?

tnucs and tnuc are my frequently used anagrams in the real world

Coisy nunt is another.

 

[seewhy]

VTA/Horizon should be giving zero money back to those conmen,

I agree in theory they shouldn't, but if they are buying "parts" from HiLo's suppliers / manufacturers, I think that means they are essentially giving money to those very same people that used to be in charge of HiLo - it's more than a licensing agreement as far as I can read, but we'll wait for the actual news from VTA before making a final call on whether they are dealing with those cupid stunts or not.

It's always good to have these things transparent so that potential customers know who they are really dealing with and whose pockets are being lined. Otherwise, as VTA rightly say, people might go onto social media and make all sorts of accusations without any detail and none of us would want that.

Of course it is always possible that the pevious directors / company secretary of HiLo sold the assets to their parent company for £35k (!) and have subsequently made this arrangement so that they can fill a fund to repay all those creditors, and maybe a proportion of every roof sold is being put aside. In which case I have knife and fork on hand for the hat-eating session.

 

[Bav]

@seewhy, I understand your anger and I won't try to minimise the distress the Pendlebury crooks have caused, but you should be careful when trashing the reputation of a product that other forum members have fitted to their vans, as you risk inciting financial losses for them, similar to those that you have suffered.

I can't really comment on the Surf roof, other than to say it sounds as if it was released for sale way too early in its development lifecycle. However, I have researched the Sport roof extensively and, IMO, it is a quality product, sold for a premium price, which is (was) difficult and time-consuming to install.

FWIW, my take is the high cost of install lead many fitters to wilfully circumvent the correct fitting procedure in order to maximise their profits and that the many fitment issues reported since were a direct consequence of those decisions. This is not to absolve the Pendleburys of responsibility for their choices and actions, but hopefully to redirect the tarnished reputation away from the product, back to where it belongs.

 

[seewhy]

With respect, please take careful note of all my posts - I have not made disparaging comments about the Sport Roof itself. Nor do I think that anyone who has had one installed, or in your case already purchased, should have any doubt about the product (and I have specifically told you that I realise you made your purchase in good faith as it was before they went bust). People just need to be lucky enough for nothing to go wrong as there is no longer a manufacturer's warranty. The fitters might "stand over" their work, so it could work out fine.

This forum is about helping each other - everyone has an opinion, some people have useful knowledge. I would have been really annoyed if people knew that the Surf roof was rubbish before I bought one - everything on the forum at that time (2018) was positive about the HiLo product (Sport) but with some negative comments about fitters doing bad work - so I arranged for mine to be fitted at HiLo. I just happened to choose the wrong (new) product. Past performance is not always a good guide... We all do our research. My choices were not based on price.

My only point in this thread is that my understanding is that the product being fitted by VTA is supplied by HiLo's parent company and associated companies and this is only possible because HiLo went into liquidation leaving significant debts and an unknown number of unsatisfied customers with outstanding claims for warranty work. Me being one of them. Other people might want to be aware of that before committing significant amounts of hard earned cash to something that lines the pockets of a Pendlebury. Personally, I am not sure about trying to separate the tarnished reputation away from the product - some would call that whitewashing.

I have stated previously I have no opinion on the work done by VTA and that remains the case - they have a good reputation for fitting roofs and converting vans. If I am wrong in my analysis of the business relationship I am very happy to retract my posts. Business decisions are important aspects of reputation management and people have choices who they get into a roof bed with.

People are at liberty to ignore the information I have provided - it is not opinion based but I recognise that it is influenced by my experiences. Really, I can assure you, you don't understand my anger - that is not the right word for how I feel about what I have been through the last 3 years even though its just a van. It would be remiss of me not to share the consequences of that unless I was happy for others to suffer a similar fate.

 

[t0mb0]

With respect, please take careful note of all my posts - I have not made disparaging comments about the Sport Roof itself. Nor do I think that anyone who has had one installed, or in your case already purchased, should have any doubt about the product (and I have specifically told you that I realise you made your purchase in good faith as it was before they went bust). People just need to be lucky enough for nothing to go wrong as there is no longer a manufacturer's warranty. The fitters might "stand over" their work, so it could work out fine.

This forum is about helping each other - everyone has an opinion, some people have useful knowledge. I would have been really annoyed if people knew that the Surf roof was rubbish before I bought one - everything on the forum at that time (2018) was positive about the HiLo product (Sport) but with some negative comments about fitters doing bad work - so I arranged for mine to be fitted at HiLo. I just happened to choose the wrong (new) product. Past performance is not always a good guide... We all do our research. My choices were not based on price.

My only point in this thread is that my understanding is that the product being fitted by VTA is supplied by HiLo's parent company and associated companies and this is only possible because HiLo went into liquidation leaving significant debts and an unknown number of unsatisfied customers with outstanding claims for warranty work. Me being one of them. Other people might want to be aware of that before committing significant amounts of hard earned cash to something that lines the pockets of a Pendlebury. Personally, I am not sure about trying to separate the tarnished reputation away from the product - some would call that whitewashing.

I have stated previously I have no opinion on the work done by VTA and that remains the case - they have a good reputation for fitting roofs and converting vans. If I am wrong in my analysis of the business relationship I am very happy to retract my posts. Business decisions are important aspects of reputation management and people have choices who they get into a roof bed with.

People are at liberty to ignore the information I have provided - it is not opinion based but I recognise that it is influenced by my experiences. Really, I can assure you, you don't understand my anger - that is not the right word for how I feel about what I have been through the last 3 years even though its just a van. It would be remiss of me not to share the consequences of that unless I was happy for others to suffer a similar fate.

I think your posts here have been perfectly judged. You’ve researched thoroughly, stuck to the facts and provided new and pertinent information. Not sure I’d be so balanced if I’d have been through what you have!

 

[Bav]

With respect, please take careful note of all my posts - I have not made disparaging comments about the Sport Roof itself.

This comment came very close...

...it has to be down to poor training, poor choice of people being certified as fitters, or poor products, or possibly a combination

 

[seewhy]

This comment came very close...

But no cigar. I was hypothesising about the business not denigrating the Sport roof per se - not an unreasonable list of possibilities that might differ from the explanation on a marketing Facebook statement?

This post might help you get a better understanding of what I've been through:

No more Surfing - HiLo to Vanmax replacement

Hopefully, this is the last post I need to make about our HiLo Surf roof. It is no more, it is an ex-roof! A huge round of applause to Vanmax Poptops…They took on the challenge and were more than equal to it. We have now got a spanking new roof that doesn’t leak, has no condensation build up...

www.t6forum.com

I certainly don't feel particularly balanced about HiLo, despite @t0mb0 's kind words, but finding a solution to my predicament has been my motivation - and if it helps others avoid falling into a similar hole that would be a bonus. The phrase "buyer beware" is pertinent and remains so. If the new Horizon roof has nothing to do with, or does not provide any financial assistance to, the Pendleburys or companies that they control, then I would add it to my list of potentials for a future van. Otherwise I'll make other choices with my money and hope others do too - I think it's a reasonably compelling argument to be cautious.

 

[seewhy]

@seewhy I thought it best to let you and others know i have taken note of your posts, and that it only be fair that it is reviewed by VTA to respond appropriately. Be aware it may take some time and potentially be a long reply due to the amount of questioning in your posts.

I understand you had a bad experience with the Surf Roof, in summary it wasn't around long for a reason. It was a poor design by HiLo in an attempt to reach the lower price range of the market. The rush to market with this product and poor training lead to its short life cycle. I can inform you a few were fitted by VTA but due to their experience and knowledge in the materials supplied and used by HiLo in the Surf roofs VTA modified them to overcome its design flaws, and hence their statement in the original post.

That being said, VTA did prefer to steer customers away from the Surf and recommend upgrading to the Sport roof. I'm sure if you had contacted them for advice, they would have been truthful and upfront about the Surf before you purchased in 2018.

VTA do undertaken repair work where the conversion was originally done elsewhere, they will, where possible always help out. I understand they currently have some insurance claim work being done at their workshops for Surf Roofs (I don't know the details, so I cannot comment further).

I do know that VTA are disassociated with the Surf top design and will not resurrect the design or the remanufacture of such a top.

I hope you have a better experience with your replacement roof, and again apologies that HiLo didn't meet your expectations or have support thereafter from them.

Thanks - that is entirely reasonable for them to respond - I wouldn't post publicly unless there was a basis to my content. And if you look back you'll see that I've been careful not to shoot from the hip despite, at times, feeling like it might be the only thing that might make me feel better.

I'm not sure my interpretation of their Facebook content is the same as yours - your explanation of their remedial work on the Surf is not what they said in the post. And HiLo themselves couldn't fix my roof in two major attempts. I'm afraid there was also an element of gaslighting, which is why I called it out.

I did get advice from a number of reputable fitters before taking the decision - being 600 miles away VTA were not on my list. We had reasons for wanting a Surf rather than Sport and would have gone with a different brand rather than upgrade - it wasn't mainly about price for us.

Unless you have anything to do with HiLo then you have no need to apologise for my experiences with HiLo or the Surf roof. But the sentiment is appreciated.

 

[Martin Stockwell]

@seewhy No problem, I'll see what I can do for you. and no I had nothing to do with HiLo.
My comments are purely from my understanding about and conversations i have had with VTA and are not VTA's comments. I will ask them to look over your posts and see if they will respond either on the forum or directly.

To correct myself regarding VTA fitting the Surf roofs, they only fitted a couple, they apparently modified the bonding process of the rear hinges to improve the strength and reduce failure, after which they decided to not continue with the Surf concentrating their resources on the Sport. The Surf didn't offer anything different in an already saturated market, whereby the Sport was unique in what it offered with the higher quality build.

Going back to @Bav understanding i believe is quite right where "installers wilfully circumvent the correct fitting procedure in order to maximise their profits". This started a spiral down effect of not being able to meet customer warranty demand vs the buildup and selling of products. Doing warranty work costs time and in effect money, as you can imagine this can only go on for so long until someone makes a decision to either carry on racking up further debt or wind up.

It would seem to me they did everything they could to keep everyone happy, which is difficult to do. They didn't want the design and product to disappear with the decision to withdraw HiLo, and it was only with the help of VTA where they have secured those rights for the designs and production of what use to be the Sport has it been reborn.

Again my understanding is the roof will have design and manufacturing changes made as well as different materials to improve on what was an excellent product.

 

[Deleted Member]

I don’t think you can say "they did everything they could to keep everyone happy", there’s been some absolute horror stories over the years and more recently people’s vehicles were left mid-conversion and locked behind closed doors after they finally went pop.

I would trust VTA to do the work, no question, but as I said above, I’m stunned that parts are being procured from those two absolute tossers.

 

[Bav]

I've just returned from VTA this evening, having been down there to finalise the spec and make my colour choices (now tired, but very excited).

We didn't discuss HiLo during the meeting, but, as we were leaving, I noticed a van emblazoned with Horizon Sport decals and made a passing comment along the lines of "How's the new venture going?" (or similar). Dan responded with "Have you heard? We've bought-out HiLo". I'd have loved to have stayed longer and explored exactly what he meant by that comment, but with a 4/5 hr journey beckoning, I simply didn't have the time.

Seems pretty obvious (to me, at least) that VTA have bought the design IP for the Sport roof, but whether they've paid to entirely remove the Pendlebury crooks from the supply chain is an open question (as is whether or not that would appease you one jot, @seewhy). Hopefully, as per @Martin Stockwell's post, VTA will clarify.

I don’t think you can say "they did everything they could to keep everyone happy", there’s been some absolute horror stories over the years and more recently people’s vehicles were left mid-conversion and locked behind closed doors after they finally went pop.

Agree with this ^^^. A "downward spiral" is very obvious to all, but refusing to acknowledge or address customer issues can hardly be described as doing "everything they could to keep everyone happy".