VW T5.1 being upgraded to T6 4motion running gear

[rolla]

@mmi .. hi bud, I did some rolling captures today, the scans loaded onto an old file and are muddled up, I will re scan it tomorrow,
but .csv file from the haldex unit, cruise off, hope that plots out a bit clearer ... was in traffic so on and off the pedal a fair bit, chop up what section is suitable if too much data history.

 

[mmi]

Looks GOOD

Thanks for the data - below a few snippets graphed. For clarity included only vehicle speed and Haldex clutch status (calculated percentage). Thus higher percentage = higher clamping force in the clutch.

If actual raw values of Haldex pump current, current PWM rate or voltage were plotted - the curves would be almost identical (just a bit "noisier" and "uncalibrated", see also the calibration further down).

Main data with quite a few Haldex features plotted​

Well, I don't know what the driver was actually doing - so my guesses are based on the data.

TIME
110 - 115 seconds:
135 - 162 seconds:

Vehicle at stand-still, gear engaged, foot on brake​

Haldex has a pressure build-up of 12-15% ready for the launch​

​

124-133 seconds

Foot off the throttle and/or braking​

Haldex fully disengages​

117 and 163 seconds

Foot off the brake, onto the throttle, vehicle starts to move​

Haldex pre-emptively spikes up pressure then levels off as vehicle gains speed​

​

220 - 250 seconds

Presumably the throttle is flipped on and off​

Haldex engages and disengages​

​

Conclusions​

Haldex responds correctly to throttle input - engages and disengeges with throttle input.

A Special case - Haldex self-calibration​

I'd say a bit of luck to capture a phenomena which I believe is Haldex doing it's self-calibration (pump current vs. clutch pressure).

Haldex spikes up the pressure to the maximum (also seen in Haldex current spiking up to 15 Amps) - based on my observation this typically happens when easing off the throttle - which is also seen here by speed starting to decline.



More about calibration principles of 5th generation Haldex on page 26 here

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Haldex degree of clamping versus vehicle speed​

To verify the clamping force is reduced as vehicle speed increases.

As Haldex clutch is by final drive - after gearbox - the torque it receives is lessened (through gearing) as vehicle speed increases thus no need to stay as "tight" as when on lower gears.

All the data is plotted as function vehicle speed. The dashed line is here to present (supposed) maximum degree of clamping vs. speed. For the curve the calibration spikes (top right) were excluded.

By accumulating more data (=more driving) the area below dashed line would eventually get cluttered more densily.

 

[rolla]

@mmi …. Thanks buddy that’s great… yes sorry for the erratic planting of acc pedal, there were some “policing of the road” by “careful” 20mph drivers …

So when reversing at home up a tiny incline, as I release the brake pedal and give a little squirt(momentary) .. I can hear the clutch pack or accumulator accuating, like a chirp(s) but mechanical not electrical sound, sounds like clutch is loading up, i tried to log that but forgot to “start” the log … oh

 

[JOG]

@mmi …. Thanks buddy that’s great… yes sorry for the erratic planting of acc pedal, there were some “policing of the road” by “careful” 20mph drivers …

So when reversing at home up a tiny incline, as I release the brake pedal and give a little squirt(momentary) .. I can hear the clutch pack or accumulator accuating, like a chirp(s) but mechanical not electrical sound, sounds like clutch is loading up, i tried to log that but forgot to “start” the log … oh

@rolla and @mmi - some great collaboration and work happening here. What an excellent result

 

[Limalex]

Is there any update available on this project? I considering something similar but until now I was 100% sure that the gen V haldex will not work with the EURO 5 ECU and ABS

 

[rolla]

Is there any update available on this project? I considering something similar but until now I was 100% sure that the gen V haldex will not work with the EURO 5 ECU and ABS

Hi Limalex... please provide your information, just out of curiosity ..... many thanks

So I haven't been fussing too much the last year on the haldex, I had issues with my own short falls, ... I didn't check the haldex oil level when I put it all together....
My head was like mush as I just lost my Mum ...
It started grabbing violently around corners, so I immediately started looking at mechanicals... I ended up replacing both front and rear UJ's on rear propshaft as they went notchy when removed ... I can't explain that but £200 later it is a bit smoother ...
I had also inspected the pump, drained out only 200ml of oil, replaced it in haldex unit, so 5-600ml short ... then it wouldn't prime, which is where it sat for ages, driving 2wd for months

I used a really helpful business that I can only give a full 5star review, autofaultfinder, in Crewe, Matt.... he knows more about haldex than what any VW dealer/master-tit's, or any tuners do, possibly vdve..blahblah too....
I wasted close to £200 and a day driving into London to get a supposed master tech to put ODIS on it and read the Haldex, bloody useless and a fool .... !
.. he couldn't get his ODIS to run a Gen5 Haldex test, kept trying to run the Gen4 and saying oh listen for the n479 solenoid clonk.... told him prior to visit it's special needs Gen5....
I then got Matt@autofaulfinder involved, sent him my haldex controller to check out, no fault found but damned good advice and spent some time with me on the phone, his youtube vids are comprehensive, about haldex controllers... he told me my haldex fault code is due to a non-primed pump..... which I thought was happening, really unsure, but was working before I ran it on low oil.

So yesterday I had to strip the haldex and clean it basically, assumption is I had a contamination in the oil, either had the wrong oil placed in it, picked up some crud and thickened the residue, which refused to allow the pump to prime ..?
.. but what was left in the pot after I washed it out and brake cleaner evaporated is a seperated thick gunk... the whole transmission system when fitted last year had only 1488miles, as read from the dsg ecu, so I don't think the clutch linings in the haldex have dropped off.....
New pump, haldex new oil, the oil was Manoil in a purplish metal tin, I used Febi last year, same vw part number but the Febi oil was darker and seemed thicker .. I prefer Manoil..

Brilliant ..the pump now primes as requested via vcds, haldex works in drive/sport/manual as you would expect, it is pretty nice in fact, good little push from behind, I can hear the pump loading up too, set for "more traction".
I used to hear the pump before I started having issues, but it works correctly now, I think it was a little sick with low oil when I fitted it all up last year.

Now I am possibly thinking of a remap & dsg map, due to the fact the dsg is set-up for a 204bhp not a 140bhp, so I sense a little more lag in the dsg than normal ... lol

I'm getting between 22-29mpg... depends on driving and journeys of course, they only ever did a T5.1 -140bhp/Manual/4motion, but the Gen5 system, with Coast funtion selectable in the MFD
It's quiet and shift perfectly, absolute dream to drive ... I feel for you FWD DSG guys now .... especially when you hit 120k miles and your driveshaft splines are powder....

The car itself in 2014, Haldex was installed on it from the factory (I think it's haldex5).



One of my friends installed all-wheel drive on the vw t5.1 Cfca, and he (in view of cutting off knowledge) bought dsg and Haldex from the 2018 car. We didn't have any problems with the connection, everything worked without any problems. There is only a slight difference in wire connection schemes.



I can conclude that the data in CAN from different versions of HALDEX is the same, and you can install any version



I also have a log file with vw t5.2 California, on which dsg +haldex was installed instead of a mechanical gearbox, there is a CCHA engine! I don't have all the details of that project, as the car was made in Kazakhstan (it's 3000 km from me) (I'll definitely post a log file a little later)Good work, tell me more about the

Good work too ... so you have a Gen4 haldex, gen 5 was in 2015/6 - T6 onwards, I have one of the last t5's as it hold the adaptable ABS units .. a v.25 ..( thanks @mmi ) your friends CFCA to dsg 4mo must hold the same or the v.100 bosch abs unit to be instantly adaptable, not forgetting mine is a highline van with limited wiring extended to the rear ... it has nothing except rear lighting loom, door locks..

 

[yeha]

Where did you source the prop CV's?

 

[rolla]

Where did you source the prop CV's?

These guys below... joints are depicted by the inner spline count, bolt holes and outer diameter, so match them and you got a fit, or just call these guys and get them sent out to you, but still have to spec yours to them, they dont have a book that list everything to vehicle manufacture but parts books that are widely used across industry so cross matched.

Dave Mac propshafts
19 Brindley Rd, Exhall, Coventry CV7 9EP
Phone: 024 7668 3239

 

[Rfkdemon]

Thanks so much for this article Rolla, very informative!

I have been putting off the 4motion conversion on my TSI LWB as there were too many unknowns for me to press on with it but I do feel like I have more chance of success now so thanks!

Mat

 

[rolla]

Thanks so much for this article Rolla, very informative!

I have been putting off the 4motion conversion on my TSI LWB as there were too many unknowns for me to press on with it but I do feel like I have more chance of success now so thanks!

Mat

Pleasure .. I give it as it is .. warts n all, only tricky stuff is the recoding of various components,
I doubt very much I would have got it done without the assistance from members on here, as the ABS unit is a bitch, as no public code, it's a hidden dark art by Bosch.
Although my mate works at Bosch and has the ear of the wizards there, the possibility could occur, but the tenacity and higher level of intelligence as said of certain T6 forum members made it happen ...

 

[rolla]

Thanks so much for this article Rolla, very informative!

I have been putting off the 4motion conversion on my TSI LWB as there were too many unknowns for me to press on with it but I do feel like I have more chance of success now so thanks!

Mat

I been reading up, good work

 

[Rfkdemon]

I been reading up, good work

Awesome!