Warranty claim refused: should I sue VW?

[liaoyang]

I am thinking of suing VW but would like to hear people's opinion of the issue. It's a bit of saga but I'll be as brief as I can:

We have an ex demo 2018 204ps California with the J623-CXEB bi-turbo engine. We purchased the so-called factory extended warranty within 3 months of first registration: this extended the 3 year warranty to 31 July 2023 and is provided by VW as an extension to the existing warranty and on the same terms. It should not be confused with the aftermarket VW warranties provided by third parties.

Our Cali developed a persistent coil warning light on start up, so I took it to our local VW Van Centre in April 2023 (3 months before the extended warranty expired) for them to investigate. I also wanted it serviced early to identify any issues before we left the country for 4 months as the warranty was expiring in that time. Unfortunately, the investigations carried out by the VW Van Centre were insufficient to find any fault that would cause the warning light to illuminate. Upon collection, I remarked that I found their inability to find the fault concerning because were about to go away and the warranty was expiring. My remark was met by shrugging shoulders and no suggestions!

The warning light persisted and we returned the Cali for investigation of the same fault (some 400 miles later) as soon as we got back to the UK but after the extended warranty expired. On this occasion, the cause of the persistent warning light was found to be the bi-turbo at a cost of £5,800 involving 14 hours labour @ £90+vat to remove and refit the engine, a bi-turbo at £2170+vat plus the cost of every nut, bolt, washer and clip that is removed that VW say has to be replaced. This cost has subsequently been reduced to £3,300 because of VW's standard contribution to the common replacement of bi-turbos on CXEB engines. The VW Van Centre say it can't be fixed under warranty because it expired and VW won't pay them. I've complained to VW Customer Service who say "it appears that the turbo failure occurred after the extended warranty had expired...Regrettably, as a brand, there is nothing further we can do in this case, and the resolution now rests with the Van Centre".

According to the owners-and-drivers/about-my-vehicle/warranties section of the VW Commercial website “Any defect must be reported to a Van Centre as soon as it is discovered. This must of course be within the warranty period”. We have clearly complied with this requirement and it's not our fault that the Van Centre couldn't find the fault: we are not mechanics, and it is impossible for us to diagnose the issue ourselves and so were totally reliant on the advice given by the Van Centre.

I'm fuming: we want our Cali back as it has been at the van centre for 2 almost months despite constant chasing. I have authorised the repair at our expense and have told VWCS that they shall be hearing from me again with a request for full reimbursement of the Van Centre’s invoice once our Cali has been satisfactorily repaired and returned. Unless we are reimbursed within 7 days of our request, I have told them that we shall send a letter before claim and that they should be in no doubt that we will issue County Court proceedings against if a satisfactory response to that letter is not received.

I belive our only course of action is against Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Ltd as suppliers of the warranty but I think we have a good case as we complied with the limited warranty terms that I can see (I can't find in depth T&Cs). I don't think we have a case against the van centre as they probably just implemented VWs testing procedure on 13 April 2023 and have no place to agree a warranty claim without authorisation from Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Ltd.

Any comments would be apprciated before I proceed down this route.

Thanks and regards.

 

[DaveD]

I have no relevant qualifications so please take my comment as that of an unqualified person;
I believe that you have a strong case, I am unsure who you should pursue.
I agree that you should be reimbursed by the provider of the warranty, VW Group UK Ltd, but you already know their line of defence, which may swing a County Court.
In my opinion VW Van Centre are equally liable - they failed to diagnose the problem within your warranty period. Had they diagnosed it when you presented it at the first opportunity the issue would have been resolved at no cost to you.
I hope you get the outcome that you want and deserve.

 

[Dellmassive]

I've always been led to believe that provided the fault is logged within the warranty period - then you're covered.

even if the garage takes months to act on it, the initial fault is logged in warranty time. . .

...

it might be worth finding a local commercial solicitor and pay them to draft and send a letter detailing the facts and timings of the problem, to add some credit to your claim.

VW CV may offer you some 50/50 etc . . .

but you might need legal assistance to see this one through.

have you got legal cover on your van insurance? - they may help?

 

[liaoyang]

I've always been led to believe that provided the fault is logged within the warranty period - then you're covered.

even if the garage takes months to act on it, the initial fault is logged in warranty time. . .

...

it might be worth finding a local commercial solicitor and pay them to draft and send a letter detailing the facts and timings of the problem, to add some credit to your claim.

VW CV may offer you some 50/50 etc . . .

but you might need legal assistance to see this one through.

have you got legal cover on your van insurance? - they may help?

Thanks @Dellmassive for the clarification about the logging. I don't have mlp on the insurance but my work involves some pre-action in the Business and Property Courts of the High Court of Justice, so I kind of know the ropes but I know a few local commercial Solicitors that may offer some input. Unfortunately, you can't recover legal costs in a small claims action at County Court if you win but neither can VW if they win. VW have a current 50% parts offer and 20% labour offer but that's because of the historic bi-turbo issues and not because of my specific warranty issue: I took out extended warranty to cover this kind of eventuality and I don't see why I should roll over unless there are compelling reasons why I should so. Thanks again.

 

[jayc001]

What warranty did you have, was it not extend the all in plan? A 2018 van should still be under warranty all in.

 

[Dellmassive]

im assuming


3years new warranty 2018-2021?

2years factory extended - yrs 4+5 2021-2023 ( i opted for this aswell)

then 2yrs ALL-IN 2023-2024? - yrs 6+7 ( i opted for this aswell)

 

[liaoyang]

What warranty did you have, was it not extend the all in plan? A 2018 van should still be under warranty all in.

As @Dellmassive says in post #6 i.e. 3 years new warranty 31 July 2018 - 31 July 2021 then 2 years factory extended warranty - 31 July 2021 - 31 July 2023

then 2yrs ALL-IN 2023-2024? - yrs 6+7 ( i opted for this aswell)

I wasn't aware that you could extend beyond year 5 and in fact the van centre knew nothing about the 2 year factory extended warranty when I requested it - is it a VW third party warranty? Wish I had known about it but perhaps they wouldn't insure pre-existing conditions so to speak!

 

[roadtripper]

I think my general comment is it sounds like your day job already means you have more relevant legal knowledge in this area than most of us...

Having re read your timeline it seems the warning light never went out?

I think VW UK might make the argument it was your choice to take the van abroad rather than taking up the investigation with them then.

I think it would have been different if the warning was intermittent or they had cleared the warning and it had returned.

Did you take any action to put in writing your concerns around the fault to the van centre or VW UK while the warranty was still running stating you were not happy it had not been resolved and you regarded it as an ongoing warranty issue?

 

[Dellmassive]

As @Dellmassive says in post #6 i.e. 3 years new warranty 31 July 2018 - 31 July 2021 then 2 years factory extended warranty - 31 July 2021 - 31 July 2023

I wasn't aware that you could extend beyond year 5 and in fact the van centre knew nothing about the 2 year factory extended warranty when I requested it - is it a VW third party warranty? Wish I had known about it but perhaps they wouldn't insure pre-existing conditions so to speak!

ALL-IN is a two year deal,

and i think the van needs to be under 6 years old to get ie in years5-6. and under 100k miles

VWCV warranties - All-in vs Extended?

Hi there folks, anyone know what is the difference between all-in plan and extended waranty? All-in plan currently £29.60 before end of August 2023. (Unfortunately the online site will not let me purchase as I already have a service plan in place, expires 4th Sept 2023, After closing date!)...

www.t6forum.com

now you can sign up online - no precheck required like before.

+++++++++++++++

Volkswagen All-In Service Plan & Warranty | VW Vans

Find out more about the new All-In service plan from Volkswagen Vans & protect your commercial vehicles with a 2 year warranty & 24/7 roadside assistance.

www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk

++++++++++++++++

Is my vehicle eligible?​

All-in has been designed for vehicles that:

• 
  Are between three and six years old at the point of activation
• 
  Are a Volkswagen Commercial Vehicle with an engine size of 2.0L or less
• 
  Have done under 100,000 miles at the point of activation
• 
  Don’t have a service plan already in place

+++++++++++++++++++

 

[Bav]

I suggest raising your complaint with The Motor Ombudsman. At a quick glance, VW Commercial Vehicles are signed-up to the Ombudsman's code of conduct, so your case should be covered by their resolution dispute service. I have a case ongoing and it's frustratingly slow, but it has the advantage that's it's cost- and risk-free to the consumer, but its rulings are binding on the business subject of the complaint. Ultimately, if you disagree with the Ombudsman's decision, you can still proceed via the courts (although the courts will taken into account the Ombudsman's decision).

 

[Pauly]

I fear it may come down to what faults the van showed when it was presented to the van centre while under warranty, you can bet they will say it wasn’t showing a turbo fault before your trip and will deny the claim on that basis

Every time a van is connected at a main dealer the vehicles details are logged with the mothership so you may be able to request this info and see what faults/fault codes your van presented when it first went in ?

 

[liaoyang]

I fear it may come down to what faults the van showed when it was presented to the van centre while under warranty, you can bet they will say it wasn’t showing a turbo fault before your trip and will deny the claim on that basis

Every time a van is connected at a main dealer the vehicles details are logged with the mothership so you may be able to request this info and see what faults/fault codes your van presented when it first went in ?

Yes, I'm aware of that defence but I think they'll have a hard job convincing a Judge that the pre-expiry warning light fault was a different one to the post-expiry warning light fault, especially as the light never went away and the original fault can't have miraculously disappeared and morphed into the turbo. I'm not au-fait with the vcds fault terminology but they said (after they'd diagnosed the fault as the Turbo in Nov 2023) that the original April 2023 investigation did not show a certain kind of fault that it now does 400 miles and about 5 months later. They then proceeded to do some manual tests rather than relying on vcds: if they'd done that in April they may well have found the fault.

Having re read your timeline it seems the warning light never went out?

I think VW UK might make the argument it was your choice to take the van abroad rather than taking up the investigation with them then.

I think it would have been different if the warning was intermittent or they had cleared the warning and it had returned.

Did you take any action to put in writing your concerns around the fault to the van centre or VW UK while the warranty was still running stating you were not happy it had not been resolved and you regarded it as an ongoing warranty issue?

No, it never went out and surely they weren't expecting me to keep booking it in in the hope they'd find something. I did tell them verbally that i regarded it as on going and all I received was some shrugging shoulders when I said I would be bringing it back in if the fault existed as soon as we got back from 5 months in China: we flew and didn't take the van but aim to drive one day.

 

[roadtripper]

So there is no record of you not accepting the van centre diagnosis and that you were continuing the warranty claim?

You did nothing to progress that warranty claim in the 4 months (first post) or 5 months (above post) you were out of the UK? You didn't write to VW UK or the dealer? You didn't take it to another dealer for a second opinion?

You don't say the reason you were out of the UK, and you don't have to justify that here, but that seems a long time for anything that might be regarded as an unexpected emergency that would have prevented you from continuing a warranty claim and investigation.

I wish you luck but I think at best you may get a greater contribution as goodwill and personally I'd start with the ombudsman route.

 

[Shaun Witts]

Yes, I'm aware of that defence but I think they'll have a hard job convincing a Judge that the pre-expiry warning light fault was a different one to the post-expiry warning light fault, especially as the light never went away and the original fault can't have miraculously disappeared and morphed into the turbo. I'm not au-fait with the vcds fault terminology but they said (after they'd diagnosed the fault as the Turbo in Nov 2023) that the original April 2023 investigation did not show a certain kind of fault that it now does 400 miles and about 5 months later. They then proceeded to do some manual tests rather than relying on vcds: if they'd done that in April they may well have found the fault.

What would worry me is that the 2nd investigation revealed an additional fault to the original one. Meaning you would need to prove that not diagnosing and fixing the original fault led to this additional one. That will surely form the basis of any argument not to cover this issue.

 

[stupot]

It’s a long shot but it may be worth getting an independent inspection of the failed part to confirm it’s a manufacturing defect. Then you could go down the route of referencing the consumer rights act (fit for purpose). I know it’s not the same but I’ve used this on other purchases when out of warranty. You’d have to work out how long it lasted v how long it should reasonably last. I did this with a 4 year old fridge and got offered a 60% refund. The company’s own website said they should typically last 10 years so they couldn’t really argue (well, they did but got there in the end).

Not much use to you but for others, when my van was approaching 6 years and I had 6 months left on my All In warranty and service package I terminated it just before it turned 6, found I’d paid enough payments to get out of the agreement at no cost (lost one MOT but only 50 quid) then took out a new 2 year plan so am covered until it’s 8 years old. Already had 2 locks repaired on the new contract! And the new contract was 25% off too

 

[liaoyang]

What would worry me is that the 2nd investigation revealed an additional fault to the original one. Meaning you would need to prove that not diagnosing and fixing the original fault led to this additional one. That will surely form the basis of any argument not to cover this issue.

A valid point thanks but I think the balance of probabilities lies in my favour, and I’ll go in armed with expert Witness Statements.

 

[liaoyang]

So there is no record of you not accepting the van centre diagnosis and that you were continuing the warranty claim?

You did nothing to progress that warranty claim in the 4 months (first post) or 5 months (above post) you were out of the UK? You didn't write to VW UK or the dealer? You didn't take it to another dealer for a second opinion?

You don't say the reason you were out of the UK, and you don't have to justify that here, but that seems a long time for anything that might be regarded as an unexpected emergency that would have prevented you from continuing a warranty claim and investigation.

I wish you luck but I think at best you may get a greater contribution as goodwill and personally I'd start with the ombudsman route.

Some salient points there thanks. In hindsight I would have done things differently but we were rushing to get off to China and I didn’t appreciate the seriousness of it as there’s lots of reports of the coil shaped warning lights being for trivial matters. It had been on before pre covid and it was some sensor.

I told them verbally that I wasn’t happy after the first investigation. I then told them that I was rebooking it for investigation as a follow up of my first warranty investigation.

We were in China for 4 months but the time between the first investigation and rebooking the second was 5 months. I had extensive medical treatment in China for a serious condition and the delay on return was caused by the nightmare of getting further NHS treatment sorted here and having that treatment. I had more things to worry about tbh as I do now but I got the van seen as quickly as I could.

The pre action conduct in the Court’s Practice Directive basically obliges me to try mediation so I’ll probably have to give the ombudsman a go first.

Thanks again

 

[Rfkdemon]

Sadly, from my own personal experience of lack of VW workshop competency and zero customer service you are likely to get no where.

I endured 3 years of trying to get issues on my T6 fixed under warranty, by the end I told them to keep it until it was fixed. They were happy to hold onto it for over 7 months and not fix the issues.
When I reported them to VW UK they contacted the dealer who then replied with a made up story from their point of view and cancelled my MOT with them for later in the week. They wouldn't speak with me but sent an email to VW UK to explain they do not take on work from customers who have raised a complaint with VW UK so I was effectively banned from the dealership.

Myself and my family have all owed VW's our entire lives but this was the final straw for me so I won't buy another VAG product and plan to try a Toyota next.

Mat

 

[BRABUS]

I know this is an old thread but while the vehicle was parked at the dealership I would have put posters in every window detailing the issue and refusal to repair. I did this with Peugeot back in 2001 over an issue. My issue was suddenly revisited and fixed in the way if should have been dealt with originally.

 

[Mike swift]

Yes, I'm aware of that defence but I think they'll have a hard job convincing a Judge that the pre-expiry warning light fault was a different one to the post-expiry warning light fault, especially as the light never went away and the original fault can't have miraculously disappeared and morphed into the turbo. I'm not au-fait with the vcds fault terminology but they said (after they'd diagnosed the fault as the Turbo in Nov 2023) that the original April 2023 investigation did not show a certain kind of fault that it now does 400 miles and about 5 months later. They then proceeded to do some manual tests rather than relying on vcds: if they'd done that in April they may well have found the fault.

No, it never went out and surely they weren't expecting me to keep booking it in in the hope they'd find something. I did tell them verbally that i regarded it as on going and all I received was some shrugging shoulders when I said I would be bringing it back in if the fault existed as soon as we got back from 5 months in China: we flew and didn't take the van but aim to drive one day.

If you had the AA etc out they will have fault codes and you should have or ask for it , previous visits service will have stored faults even if you bought it ex demo ? Vwcv told me the contract is between you and franchise ,they wiggle out of it ,.Their are so many Vw with expensive issues ,we need to start a system just to see how many . If there are so many out there then maybe something could be logged and done .The next big thing after dieselgate !!!!