What's my van worth??

[KR.]

Sigh
I am with @Salty Spuds on this one, if it looks like a Campervan and smells like a Campervan then it’s a Campervan for speed limit purposes and in the unlikely event that I get an NIP I shall send my evidence to the court probably with the published guidance from DVLA.
After the carnage of the thread of death on DVLA classification I stopped worrying about this after they published that guidance.
In fact and having just done Inverness to North Devon and back it was not nearly as painful as it might be as if you travel at a genuine GPS speed plus 5% rather than speedo speed. You will be doing what most of the cars drivers do anyway on the A9 while they think they are at 60.

Thanks for the reply, particularly as it is the A9 I'm probably most concerned about. Can I ask why you stuck to a speed below 60mph if you believe that you've got campervan speed limits?
Is it because you still have a bit of doubt or perhaps you don't want to get into the situation of having to fight a ticket - both perfectly acceptable reasons btw. I go up and down the A9 several
times a month and I aimed for 60mph GPS in my last T6, it was where I set my cruise to - I often drive early morning/late night when the road is quieter. I've also driven up it during busier
periods when an average as high as 50mph would have been welcome!

We seem to have settled into two camps :

1. You have a Transporter converted to a motor caravan but body type not registered as a motor caravan ergo 50/60/70 - although to counter that the DVLA says body type has no effect on speed limits.

2. You have a Transporter converted to a motor caravan and has the required internal features (external features only being required for body type recognition) ergo 60/70/70
This may entail receiving a speeding ticket which could be defended by advising them that your vehicle is a motorcaravan as it has the DVLA required internal features. Maybe..

Going round in circles? just a bit
Do we not have a policeman aboard the forum?

I'd have been up north right now if it were not for the weather, the conditions on the hills are a bit 'unsettled' at the moment.

 

[Salty Spuds]

The speed limits are bugger all to do with the DVLA, they don't make or even enforce the law. Speed limits are set out in the Road Traffic Act 1984. If you have a Motor Caravan, under 3050KG, then you are subject to passenger car speed limits.
Motorhome Speed Limits

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

Thanks for the reply, particularly as it is the A9 I'm probably most concerned about. Can I ask why you stuck to a speed below 60mph if you believe that you've got campervan speed limits?
Is it because you still have a bit of doubt or perhaps you don't want to get into the situation of having to fight a ticket - both perfectly acceptable reasons btw. I go up and down the A9 several
times a month and I aimed for 60mph GPS in my last T6, it was where I set my cruise to - I often drive early morning/late night when the road is quieter. I've also driven up it during busier
periods when an average as high as 50mph would have been welcome!

We seem to have settled into two camps :

1. You have a Transporter converted to a motor caravan but body type not registered as a motor caravan ergo 50/60/70 - although to counter that the DVLA says body type has no effect on speed limits.

2. You have a Transporter converted to a motor caravan and has the required internal features (external features only being required for body type recognition) ergo 60/70/70
This may entail receiving a speeding ticket which could be defended by advising them that your vehicle is a motorcaravan as it has the DVLA required internal features. Maybe..

Going round in circles? just a bit
Do we not have a policeman aboard the forum?

I'd have been up north right now if it were not for the weather, the conditions on the hills are a bit 'unsettled' at the moment.

That's an easy one, its not a campervan yet, I was on the way down to get the pop top and sliding seat fitted and its now only short of furniture and kitchen equipment to qualify.
So I was indeed doing 50mph GPS plus 5 to 10%
Good spot

PS, Although its a Kombi to begin with I don't qualify as dual purpose even though its a 4Motion because its a T32 LWB and well over the weight limit for Dual Purpose speeds.

 

[cgtmiles]

The speed limits are bugger all to do with the DVLA, they don't make or even enforce the law. Speed limits are set out in the Road Traffic Act 1984. If you have a Motor Caravan, under 3050KG, then you are subject to passenger car speed limits.
Motorhome Speed Limits

But the term “Motor Caravan” comes from the DVLA body type and according to the rules pop tops vans do not qualify as motor caravans to change the body type. So can you really argue that the speed limits should apply.

what about the dual purpose classification? All campers meet the requirements for that and car speed limits apply to those vehicles. I’m just cannot find anywhere that this would be recorded

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

The speed limits are bugger all to do with the DVLA, they don't make or even enforce the law. Speed limits are set out in the Road Traffic Act 1984. If you have a Motor Caravan, under 3050KG, then you are subject to passenger car speed limits.
Motorhome Speed Limits

Great link, quick clarification of the 3050kg its unladen weight, so all T6 campers should be fine.

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

But the term “Motor Caravan” comes from the DVLA body type and according to the rules pop tops vans do not qualify as motor caravans to change the body type. So can you really argue that the speed limits should apply.

what about the dual purpose classification? All campers meet the requirements for that and car speed limits apply to those vehicles. I’m just cannot find anywhere that this would be recorded

See paragraph 2 as copied earlier in the thread for more info
DVLA Guidance

 

[DXX]

Does it really matter when just about everybody is driving at 80 anyway?

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

Does it really matter when just about everybody is driving at 80 anyway?

Sadly not on the A9 where we have over 100 miles of average speed cameras!!!

 

[KR.]

That's an easy one, its not a campervan yet, I was on the way down to get the pop top and sliding seat fitted and its now only short of furniture and kitchen equipment to qualify.

When are you getting that done? Will you be returning via the A9

 

[Salty Spuds]

But the term “Motor Caravan” comes from the DVLA body type and according to the rules pop tops vans do not qualify as motor caravans to change the body type. So can you really argue that the speed limits should apply.

what about the dual purpose classification? All campers meet the requirements for that and car speed limits apply to those vehicles. I’m just cannot find anywhere that this would be recorded

Again, we are crediting the DVLA with more nous & power than they are due. The term "Motor Caravan" is defined in law in the Type Approval regs 1979. It has nothing to do with the DVLA.


The relevant term to us is "Adapted".
The DVLA is an agency of the Government, they are record keepers, no more, no less. They can only operate within the legislation. If you get prosecuted, you are prosecuted under the relevant section of Law, not on the whim of the DVLA. If your vehicle falls within the category of Motor Caravan as defined by LAW, then you are subject to the speed limits as set out in Schedule 6 of the RTA1984. It's got sod all to do with what the DVLA say. If you get a ticket because some automated system isn't smart enough to know the difference, then take it to court.

 

[cgtmiles]

Again, we are crediting the DVLA with more nous & power than they are due. The term "Motor Caravan" is defined in law in the Type Approval regs 1979. It has nothing to do with the DVLA.
View attachment 60540

The relevant term to us is "Adapted".
The DVLA is an agency of the Government, they are record keepers, no more, no less. They can only operate within the legislation. If you get prosecuted, you are prosecuted under the relevant section of Law, not on the whim of the DVLA. If your vehicle falls within the category of Motor Caravan as defined by LAW, then you are subject to the speed limits as set out in Schedule 6 of the RTA1984. It's got sod all to do with what the DVLA say. If you get a ticket because some automated system isn't smart enough to know the difference, then take it to court.

Thanks for correcting me there, I had only seen the term used when referring to body type and the previous link about Motorhome speed limit didn’t clarify this (or if did I missed it). So we are good for 70 on the dual carriageway but we just have to be ready for a fight if it comes to it and there is no way round that, right?

We could plan a forum trip up the A9 to collect as many tickets as possible then do a class action, any volunteers?

Now that this is sorted, how do I get away with doing 90 past a school?

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

Thanks for correcting me there, I had only seen the term used when referring to body type and the previous link about Motorhome speed limit didn’t clarify this (or if did I missed it). So we are good for 70 on the dual carriageway but we just have to be ready for a fight if it comes to it and there is no way round that, right?

We could plan a forum trip up the A9 to collect as many tickets as possible then do a class action, any volunteers?

Now that this is sorted, how do I get away with doing 90 past a school?

I can help with that but probably not very usefully

 

[KR.]

Another source of info is the Highway Code :
Speed limits

Motorhomes or motor caravans 30 (48) 60 (96) 70 (112) 70 (112)
(not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight)

We have the definition of motorcaravan already, we know that if we meet the internal requirements then it is a motor caravan.
From the Highway Code, lower down the same page ...

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:

• carry goods for exhibition and sale
• are used as a workshop
• are used for storage

There seems to be a clear difference then between motor caravan and goods vehicles, regardless of original body type and construction.

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

When are you getting that done? Will you be returning via the A9

Its now back in the North sporting a Jerba pop top and a Reimo Variotech 3000 seat system on power rails, will post some pics in the camper section when I get round to it

 

[Dieseldonkey]

The speed limits are bugger all to do with the DVLA.

Correct. But it's how your vehicles details are recorded and categorized in specific fields on the DVLA database that matter. The relevant camera enforcement unit will use this database to generate the NIP. If you end up using a lawyer to argue your case at court, the cost will be significantly more than the 100 quid fixed penalty. Even if you did win.

Not saying this to be awkward. Just saying, be careful.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Correct. But it's how your vehicles details are recorded and categorized in specific fields on the DVLA database that matter. The relevant camera enforcement unit will use this database to generate the NIP. If you end up using a lawyer to argue your case at court, the cost will be significantly more than the 100 quid fixed penalty. Even if you did win.

Not saying this to be awkward. Just saying, be careful.

True, but it all boils down to your personal aversion to risk. The law is there in black & white, you don’t need a solicitor to point out the “bleeding obvious” even VOSA admit that the V5 is irrelevant. If the DVLA choose to record the wrong information on their database, that’s up to them.
I have challenged speeding tickets in court before, and won, & been awarded costs. The evidence I used was far weaker than what is clearly written in law in this case.

 

[cgtmiles]

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I’m talking about here (if that wasn’t already obvious!)

Our laws are based on case history aren’t they so, if there is one case or multiple cases where they have tried to prosecute and failed then that then becomes the de facto law going forward. Therefore they should stop taking these cases to court.

And we all live happily ever after

 

[KR.]

I've also used legal cover on my insurance before and came off favourably after representation from a solicitor. Cgtmiles is right and I think we need someone to tear up the A9 at the er, speed limit of a car and see how it goes.
Failing that, does anyone know a traffic cop?

 

[Glen51]

I see the Department for Transport publish guidance on the internal features for motorcaravans -
Internal features for motor caravans

Whilst this relates to converting a vehicle, I think it is reasonable to argue that the view of the DfT on the internal features that make a motorcaravan in respect of a conversion should be taken as being the same as "the facilities reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users" - as per the Motor Vehicle Regulations 1979 requirements for a motorcaravan.

Hey ho - we await a NIP to see what might happen.

 

[Leehoops]

Very interesting is this chaps as my van conversion was completed before Christmas, I have been holding back on changing the v5 due to all the confusion ! I know I will need to send of the v 5 to get it changed to a van with windows but my van is a long wheel base t32 does this mean my unladen weight is more than 3050 tonnes ? Therefore meaning I would have to stick to the 50-60-70 speed limit regardless of it being a motor caravan ?