102PS with 2 Turbo Failures - was re-map to blame?

[Insert Coin]

Just thinking again, maybe the Euro 6 single turbo engines have some differences. I say that because Revo won’t map the Euro 6 due to it having a weaker turbo than the higher powered models. Perhaps it was the Euro 5 that was identical throughout the range?

 

[DXX]

For anyone thinking about remapping a 204ps for more torque there are two different DMF’s installed, one for 450Nm max and another for 500Nm max.

 

[BognorMotors]

As has been said the 102 euro 6 is a weaker turbo and VW have problems with just the stock map. Revo actually with drew their map for this very reason. You need to take the map off and replace the turbo.

 

[BognorMotors]

It is however very strange how quickly the second one destroyed itself and would need further investigation.

Initially it does sound like the map hasn’t helped the original turbo, and the power delivery doesn’t sound correct.

Im Presuming the mapper health checked the engine prior to the map and after?

 

[chriscroft]

As has been said the 102 euro 6 is a weaker turbo and VW have problems with just the stock map. Revo actually with drew their map for this very reason. You need to take the map off and replace the turbo.

If a brand new (if indeed it was brand new and not a poor reconditioned turbo) has destroyed its self in 3 miles, I would want to do more than just remove a reputable remap and fit a new turbo; there is something else wrong.
The van needs to go to a specialist for a proper investigation; for fear of destroying another turbo!

 

[BognorMotors]

See my second post @chriscroft I completely agree. There are a lot of parameters we don’t know about. What we do know is these are weak turbos in the first place and shouldn’t be mapped, so remove that first.

 

[dubber36]

99% sure, I’ve asked the same question a few years back, I’ve been told by far more knowledgeable people that they are identical in every way except the software.

I believe they are down-tuned from the factory, so bringing an 84bhp up to 140bhp won’t be an issue at all.

Going from 84bhp to 170bhp is a bigger jump and beyond what VW ever intended. Also the 5 speed gearbox is known to crap itself with too much extra torque hence why some tuners torque limit in first and second gears.

If that was the case, a mapped 84 would produce the same power as a mapped 150, but then you contradict that by saying "going from 84bhp to 170bhp is a bigger jump..."

 

[JOG]

See my second post @chriscroft I completely agree. There are a lot of parameters we don’t know about. What we do know is these are weak turbos in the first place and shouldn’t be mapped, so remove that first.

Slightly off-track, but.....a few questions:
Are there different turbos on the different engines in the range? Would the turbo on a 150 DSG (like mine!) be different?If they are known to be weak, should we upgrade them?

 

[chriscroft]

See my second post @chriscroft I completely agree. There are a lot of parameters we don’t know about. What we do know is these are weak turbos in the first place and shouldn’t be mapped, so remove that first.

I assume there is a better stronger turbo available now for this engine?, and that the older weaker turbo wouldn't be provided by any reputable supplier ?

 

[Insert Coin]

If that was the case, a mapped 84 would produce the same power as a mapped 150, but then you contradict that by saying "going from 84bhp to 170bhp is a bigger jump..."

I wish I could find the post on here or on Facebook, it was someone reputable like Martin at Pendle who said all the single turbo engines were exactly the same, I think this may have been before the 84 was discovered to have a different turbo than the higher powered models.

But you could assume that taking a 102 to 150 would be perfectly safe because that’s what VW themselves do but in reverse by down-tuning the engine software.

 

[Insert Coin]

Slightly off-track, but.....a few questions:
Are there different turbos on the different engines in the range? Would the turbo on a 150 DSG (like mine!) be different?If they are known to be weak, should we upgrade them?

Only the 84 has a weedy turbo, the 102/150 is the same.

 

[JOG]

Only the 84 has a weedy turbo, the 102/150 is the same.

Thank you @Insert Coin - so anyone with an 84 who is thinking of remapping should also upgrade their turbo?!! I am still in the camp that argues “if you want more punch, buy a van with more punch”!

 

[Samro]

Only the 84 has a weedy turbo, the 102/150 is the same.

Not according to @mmi post #76

These days, when an OEM designs an engine, there is more too it than changing the fuel delivery rate/pressure and boost pressure.

OEM’s are constantly striving to obtain the lowest emissions possible and this in itself has a bearing on the overall package of parts that make up a particular model. This will cause an OEM ‘s family of engines to have subtle variances and makes remapping a risk unless the complete package is looked at.

On a good day remapping will give more power and only provide an unknown risk to the operator in terms of compromised longevity of the engine life.

On a bad day remapping will cause an engine to s**t itself and the operator need to accept that he knowingly took the risk.

it is for this reason that people that remap cannot be criticised, but I would never buy a vehicle that I knew had been remapped.

 

[Insert Coin]

Thank you @Insert Coin - so anyone with an 84 who is thinking of remapping should also upgrade their turbo?!! I am still in the camp that argues “if you want more punch, buy a van with more punch”!

Pendle will do a more sympathetic tune for the 84 I think, Revo is more generic hence they have dropped their tune.

 

[Insert Coin]

Not according to @mmi post #76

These days, when an OEM designs an engine, there is more too it than changing the fuel delivery rate/pressure and boost pressure.

OEM’s are constantly striving to obtain the lowest emissions possible and this in itself has a bearing on the overall package of parts that make up a particular model. This will cause an OEM ‘s family of engines to have subtle variances and makes remapping a risk unless the complete package is looked at.

On a good day remapping will give more power and only provide an unknown risk to the operator in terms of compromised longevity of the engine life.

On a bad day remapping will cause an engine to s**t itself and the operator need to accept that he knowingly took the risk.

it is for this reason that people that remap cannot be criticised, but I would never buy a vehicle that I knew had been remapped.

The post by @mmi includes some European engine types which we don’t get here?

 

[Samro]

The post by @mmi includes some European engine types which we don’t get here?

Man these vans are confusing on the “variant” front!

 

[Niknak]

This is tuning what ever backwards way you think about it and at no time what so ever when I was building engines for racing did I think I want more power and really want it to last for ever or get anoyed when one let go if wasn’t rebuilt

 

[chriscroft]

Thank you @Insert Coin - so anyone with an 84 who is thinking of remapping should also upgrade their turbo?!! I am still in the camp that argues “if you want more punch, buy a van with more punch”!

I'm of the opinion if you've got an 84 with an old turbo; upgrade it immediately if you can afford to, regardless of which map you are running

 

[Insert Coin]

Man these vans are confusing on the “variant” front!

Yeah, and I’m sure various engine components will have been up/downgraded as the model matures, hence some different part numbers along the way.

With reference to ‘tuning’, I know a guy who I went to school with and another guy who both have the mechanical knowledge of a pair of slugs. They both offer ‘remaps’ offering ‘big gainz’, they seriously don’t have a clue except plugging in a laptop or a tuning box with nothing to prove what they have or haven’t done to enhance performance or additional fuel economy.

I’ve got a Revo on my 204, they have the resources to ensure plenty of r&d has been carried out before offering their products to market.

If I was nearer to Pendle I’d have one of his maps as he has the ability to run before and after dyno prints on a 4-Motion.

 

[chriscroft]

Yeah, and I’m sure various engine components will have been up/downgraded as the model matures, hence some different part numbers along the way.

With reference to ‘tuning’, I know a guy who I went to school with and another guy who both have the mechanical knowledge of a pair of slugs. They both offer ‘remaps’ offering ‘big gainz’, they seriously don’t have a clue except plugging in a laptop or a tuning box with nothing to prove what they have or haven’t done to enhance performance or additional fuel economy.

I’ve got a Revo on my 204, they have the resources to ensure plenty of r&d has been carried out before offering their products to market.

If I was nearer to Pendle I’d have one of his maps as he has the ability to run before and after dyno prints on a 4-Motion.

The last time I heard Pendle were still mapping the 84 with the problem turbo; not sure if they still are?