102PS with 2 Turbo Failures - was re-map to blame?

[DXX]

I'm of the opinion if you've got an 84 with an old turbo; upgrade it immediately if you can afford to, regardless of which map you are running

Autotrader is your friend, sling it and buy something designed to do what you want.
If you look on converters websites there are loads of converted 84 and 102ps vans, my guess is that the purchasers are so smitten with the furniture they have overlooked the engine. Higher profit margin.

 

[Insert Coin]

The last time I heard Pendle were still mapping the 84 with the problem turbo; not sure if they still are?

Pretty they still show it on their website, but Martin and his crew actually write the maps specifically for each van depending on how/what the initial diagnostics reveal.

I believe Pendle resellers send the consultation diagnostics back to Pendle HQ for them to oversee before any maps are installed.

 

[chriscroft]

Pretty they still show it on their website, but Martin and his crew actually write the maps specifically for each van depending on how/what the initial diagnostics reveal.

I believe Pendle resellers send the consultation diagnostics back to Pendle HQ for them to oversee before any maps are installed.

The problem is turbos can catastrophically fail with little or no tell tail signs in my experience; an oil seal just lets go.

 

[Insert Coin]

The problem is turbos can catastrophically fail with little or no tell tail signs in my experience; often an oil seal just lets go.

Yes I’m sure, Pendle torque limit to protect the 5 speed gearbox, no doubt they would be mindful of the turbo too.

I suspect if you took a 50,000 mile, 84bhp engine there with an unknown tune they’d turn you away anyway.

Might even get him to comment himself @PendlePerformanceLtd

 

[Stevo468]

Appreciate your comments. Agreed some of this just doesn't add up.
The replacement turbo was definitely a brand new VW part, but it was slightly different to one that came off as VW had modified the design of the original 102 item.. I have the box the new turbo came in and have the purchase order paperwork.
If the mapping was at fault why did the original turbo last a good few miles before it failed.
Also, if the mapping was as fault then surely over fuelling or over boosting would have been obvious - black smoke for over fuelling. Too much boost pressure would give a big surge in power. I had neither.
And I am sceptical about the power increase claim. There's no way in my mind I was getting 170ps. I could barely notice the difference post map.
Now I'm sure Quantum aim to be an honest legitimate firm and I currently have no evidence to refute their power gain claims, but I need convincing as to how just a re-map can liberate so much more power. It simply doesn't make sense. If the map just exploits the potential power output as the entire hardware of the engine unit manufactured by VW is the same as for the 102, 105 and 180ps models I'm a monkey.

Does anyone know if this is the case? If a102ps engine was a detuned 180ps engine it would be bullet proof.

And then you could simply copy the 180ps engine ECU mapping and apply it to the 102ps. Nobody seems to be able to give me a sensible answer to this.

I suspect the failure is not the mapping, but something else like turbo oil feed or something else and that the local garage did not have the wherewithal to do a proper failure diagnosis. Now they are just hiding behind the re-map as the cause for the second failure and have washed their hands of any further involvement.

 

[dubber36]

I would have thought that overfuelling or overboosting would drop it straight into limp mode, not give you a surge of power that you'd perhaps expect.

Years back I had a V6 TDI Passat. One of it's common faults was clogged up, sticking VNT vanes. If they were stuck open, it would produce too much boost for the engines load and go into limp mode. You van should pick up on any irregular sensor readings and protect itself, which is what makes me think the problem is mechanical and not electrical.

 

[chriscroft]

Appreciate your comments. Agreed some of this just doesn't add up.
The replacement turbo was definitely a brand new VW part, but it was slightly different to one that came off as VW had modified the design of the original 102 item.. I have the box the new turbo came in and have the purchase order paperwork.
If the mapping was at fault why did the original turbo last a good few miles before it failed.
Also, if the mapping was as fault then surely over fuelling or over boosting would have been obvious - black smoke for over fuelling. Too much boost pressure would give a big surge in power. I had neither.
And I am sceptical about the power increase claim. There's no way in my mind I was getting 170ps. I could barely notice the difference post map.
Now I'm sure Quantum aim to be an honest legitimate firm and I currently have no evidence to refute their power gain claims, but I need convincing as to how just a re-map can liberate so much more power. It simply doesn't make sense. If the map just exploits the potential power output as the entire hardware of the engine unit manufactured by VW is the same as for the 102, 105 and 180ps models I'm a monkey.

Does anyone know if this is the case? If a102ps engine was a detuned 180ps engine it would be bullet proof.

And then you could simply copy the 180ps engine ECU mapping and apply it to the 102ps. Nobody seems to be able to give me a sensible answer to this.

I suspect the failure is not the mapping, but something else like turbo oil feed or something else and that the local garage did not have the wherewithal to do a proper failure diagnosis. Now they are just hiding behind the re-map as the cause for the second failure and have washed their hands of any further involvement.

So sorry to hear about your turbo events; I think nearly all of us feel for you.
I would agree, if the part is a genuine VW brand new part, then it would point to poor fitting. There is one other possibility, that somehow the incorrect map was installed in error, but the likelihood of this is very low.
Are you planning to talk to Quantum first?

 

[DaveD]

It seems clear to me that there is no point fitting a new turbo until you have established exactly what caused the failure of the two previous turbos. I personally don't see how a few miles driving on a brand new genuine VW turbo with a remapped engine could cause the turbo to fail, there are plenty of remapped 102's out there, garages would be full of them with dead turbochargers if that were the case.
Somebody tell me (I know you will!!) if I'm wrong in suggesting a proper oil analysis. Was oil dilution a factor? Had the van had a lot of unsuccessful dpf regens? Is there any other particle matter in the sump that might indicate another problem? How long had that oil filter been on for?

 

[Cornishman]

Sorry to here your turbo problems seems to me you need to send the turbo to a specialist BTN turbos very helpful tech department they should be able to pinpoint the cause of failure,you may have to send it to them and get a report most turbo failures is caused by lack of lubricant

 

[Niknak]

It’s horrible when parts fail and am sympathetic even though my views are stern but I was always told cheapest is the most expensive in the end, if you don’t trust the garages you take your vehicles too why do so many people not go to reputable ones or dealers ( it’s to save a few pounds ) and when it goes wrong they all end up at vw expecting them to undo the poor choices or workmanship.
It’s funny how all these Fred in the sheds disappear like cock roaches when they mess up, when the first turbo went was it diagnosed and reasons why looked at I guess not as the same happens when people read fault codes and that must be the fault, computers are stupid they only guide good techs shit techs think diagnostic machines are god. Now presented with this job first time the turbo drain path would have been checked all way to sump, sump would have been removed for clean out, fresh oil and filter, oil pressure check carried out, it a turbo has disintegrated then you should be looking at accounting for all parts, not just Chuck a turbo on it and hope, can you tell me the list of parts fitted and or changed

 

[chriscroft]

Sorry to here your turbo problems seems to me you need to send the turbo to a specialist BTN turbos very helpful tech department they should be able to pinpoint the cause of failure,you may have to send it to them and get a report most turbo failures is caused by lack of lubricant

If you go this route, then I would get in writing or similar from the garage that installed your new turbo that they are blaming the remap.
This way you will have a small claims court against them if the turbo investigation finds that they failed to ensure proper lubrication

 

[Niknak]

I’d like to see the court that would rule in your favour when you knowingly augmented your engine from standard power output to increased unauthorised by manufacture, courts are not one sided in things like this and first sniff of modification think you’ll be on shit creek personally

 

[chriscroft]

I’d like to see the court that would rule in your favour when you knowingly augmented your engine from standard power output to increased unauthorised by manufacture, courts are not one sided in things like this and first sniff of modification think you’ll be on shit creek personally

An expert view from a turbo expert will go along way,
If it was a lubrication failure, and a remap cannot cause this failure; then IMO its a route worth exploring for little cost and risk

 

[DaveD]

I’d like to see the court that would rule in your favour when you knowingly augmented your engine from standard power output to increased unauthorised by manufacture, courts are not one sided in things like this and first sniff of modification think you’ll be on shit creek personally

You make a valid point but I would argue that when faced with a knackered turbo the garage had a duty to at least investigate why the turbo failed, rather jump to the rather unscientific conclusion that, "Oh, the remap must have caused it, lets just bolt on another turbo and not even bother changing the oil and filter."

 

[JOG]

What they wrote on the invoice about the remap slammed the door on any litigation....in my view!

 

[Niknak]

So once again then like I say why use these people surely any one would have the oil and filter changed at the same time if the garage did not recommend then bottom line they are rubbish, you don’t want a turbo expert to look you need a Metallurgist btw

 

[chriscroft]

Rights let us all pull together and try to help @Stevo468 the best we can collectively

My thoughts are, "as a starter for 10"

(1 ) Speak to quantum in a non-combative manner about the facts of the matter, and see if they can help.
(2) Review this conversation
(3) then perhaps speak to the garage that fitted the turbo and relay the Quantum conversation; they might review the matter and become more helpful; particularly if you mention that Quantum suspect lubrication failure (if that's what they suggest); and suggest the turbo be sent to a specialist for failure diagnosis.

We have a few work vans, and I might then take the van straight to a specialist turbo garage get it fixed and back on the road, and then sort the mess out following the first 3 steps if the original garage refuses to help.

Any thoughts?

 

[Niknak]

Just quickly do you have the old turbo ? As I’ve fitted lots of vw turbos all of which have been exchange

 

[chriscroft]

What they wrote on the invoice about the remap slammed the door on any litigation....in my view!

You cannot remove "reasonable skill and care" that you have a legal duty to provide with bullshit one-liners, after the event IMO

 

[chriscroft]

You cannot remove "reasonable skill and care" that you have a legal duty to provide with bullshit one-liners, after the event IMO

actually, it's probably "duty of care" under negligence that the garage would have to give you.
But getting legal is not the way to go at this point IMO, just that you do have an expectation that a garage will act in a competent professional manner at all times.