B 2 B Ignition Feed?

[jph99]

Help Please... 'engine run' feed?
Probably wrong place to ask, (sorry), but newbie here. I have a 2018 T6 Panel van, trying to fit an Schaudt WA 121525 B to B charger ... Schaudt have told me directly that I must have an 'engine run' feed. Tested the rear of main light switch - there are NO such connections (only ignition on) and they look like very low wattage bus wires. Tested all connectors under passenger seat - same.
Is there a (fairly accessible) 'engine run' feed anywhere? I understand the BCM unit under drivers side front 'may' have such - but these connectors look impossible to tap into... Help! (Or do I ditch the Schaudt and go for another make that only needs an ign on feed?)
thanks very much
John P.

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

I need to get this done as well and don’t have a plan yet.
Do you have factory tow bar fit at all?
If you do there may be additional wiring that could help under the passenger seat. Lots of info on the forum for that in searches.
Also not sure how important it will be to use ignition or engine running in the long term as the difference would appear to be switching during stop start events.
If the van senses a high load it may not even stop the engine. More info on this in @Dellmassive super useful posts on DC-DC chargers.

 

[Skyliner33]

Help Please... 'engine run' feed?
Probably wrong place to ask, (sorry), but newbie here. I have a 2018 T6 Panel van, trying to fit an Schaudt WA 121525 B to B charger ... Schaudt have told me directly that I must have an 'engine run' feed. Tested the rear of main light switch - there are NO such connections (only ignition on) and they look like very low wattage bus wires. Tested all connectors under passenger seat - same.
Is there a (fairly accessible) 'engine run' feed anywhere? I understand the BCM unit under drivers side front 'may' have such - but these connectors look impossible to tap into... Help! (Or do I ditch the Schaudt and go for another make that only needs an ign on feed?)
thanks very much
John P.

There is a fuse box below the gear stick near the passenger side. The central fuses are all ignition live. You could piggy back one of those fuses.

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

There is a fuse box below the gear stick near the passenger side. The central fuses are all ignition live. You could piggy back one of those fuses.

Thanks @Skyliner33 that is indeed where I was looking to get the ignition feed. The stickier challenge is getting an engine running feed from the BCM same as the OEM aux battery feed. Not yet sorted how to 1. Pin into the BCM and 2. VCDS the change so that the van thinks it has the aux battery fitted. I have the aux battery (not California) wiring drawing but the BCM connections not clear.
More research required.

 

[Pauly]

Help Please... 'engine run' feed?
Probably wrong place to ask, (sorry), but newbie here. I have a 2018 T6 Panel van, trying to fit an Schaudt WA 121525 B to B charger ... Schaudt have told me directly that I must have an 'engine run' feed. Tested the rear of main light switch - there are NO such connections (only ignition on) and they look like very low wattage bus wires. Tested all connectors under passenger seat - same.
Is there a (fairly accessible) 'engine run' feed anywhere? I understand the BCM unit under drivers side front 'may' have such - but these connectors look impossible to tap into... Help! (Or do I ditch the Schaudt and go for another make that only needs an ign on feed?)
thanks very much
John P.

Not sure you will find one inside the van, not sure why you would need one ?
What’s the difference between and ignition supply and a run signal, only reason I can think is that if you used an ignition supply (as pretty much everyone does) it will fire up when you turn the key on so if you didnt start the engine the B2B would be harvesting the engine batt with engine running

 

[jph99]

Hi Pauly,

This is what Schaultd emailed me when I asked if I could use just an ignition on feed:

"You must have any signal 12…14V which is high when the motor is running.
In case you have a flat starter battery and like to start the motor and… the ignition signal is already on the booster will take 25A from the battery out additional. I think better to have a signal which is comeing up when the alternator is already on."

So, it looks like you do - or the leisure battery takes the starter load (Travelvolts mentions this I think in his posts also) and what is odd is that there is no information 'anywhere' that states clearly how to do this. Yet everyone who has blue motion with regeneration braking (all T6's?) must need to do it as the battery is kept low to allow for the regen to top it up (and this is not the stop start but that clearly makes it more important as will stress the battery/wires more often), and as I understand the factory fitted lesure battery has such a feed from the BCM under the seat.

This is why I have spent weeks trying to find an answer . There must be an answer from the professional fitters?

Or is another unit better - is there a manufacturer that has a clever sensor that knows when engine is running (some sort of voltage check with delayed start?) or one that cleverly prevents surges back in opposite direction (to main battery)??
cheers JP

 

[Pete C]

Logically their comment makes sense, but I am not aware of any other charger manufacturer that does this.

My Ablemail charger doesn’t even have a separate “sense” line in, but I assume it has the intelligence to know that the starter is turning, and not to draw any current.

In reality, a starter motor is going to draw the vast majority of any current, so 25A is not going to flow to the battery (I think).

Pete

 

[Nigel W]

I have a Sterling BtoB charger which does not need a run signal or ‘sense’ connection it just sorts itself out somehow.
Pro Batt Ultra Battery to Battery Chargers, Non Waterproof, (Drip Resistant IP21)

 

[Pauly]

I can see the logic, if you had a low batt its like trying to start it with lights on and fan blowing
I think if you want a run signal you may have to go to the engine bay, think its referred to as D+ off the alternator ?

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

So reading through the posts everyone thinks it makes sense to have an ‘engine running’ voltage signal rather than ignition on. But we don’t know how to pick up on the running alternator voltage.
Does every service in the van run on ignition on? Stuff like heated seats and windscreen for example? They are pretty high load and might not be enabled until the alternator is up to speed.
Alternatively it is possible the unit could sort this out for itself based on alternator output voltage which is controlled from the BCM no?

 

[Pete C]

I found the manual for that device. This page covers your installation I think.
It explicitly shows D+ being used.

Pete

 

[Phil_G]

"You must have any signal 12…14V which is high when the motor is running.
In case you have a flat starter battery and like to start the motor and…

So most of the time, 'ignition live' would be fine, its only likely to be a problem IF you have a flat battery. Just put a switch in the ignition live, then IF you have a flat battery you can switch off the B2B 'ignition live' feed. Seems easier to me.
There may be times you'd want to switch it off anyway - say a long journey on a sunny day, why waste diesel charging when solar is free?
Cheers
Phil

 

[jph99]

Hi Phil-G,
Interesting idea, not thought of that! However I want to sell it on after a while and I would rather have a 'proper' job done so that I am not selling something that is not ideal.
The issue with the D+ is that their simply is not one anywhere - and this is why i started this thread - I have looked at ALL the posts and not found a definitive answer, and I repeat - this seems very odd to me as it affects all T6 panel van conversions and converters...makes no sense as it is a core issue for a good reliable, fail-safe installation.
Any pro converters know the solution?
jp

 

[Pauly]

Isnt the solution to get it from the engine bay ?

 

[jph99]

I have a Sterling BtoB charger which does not need a run signal or ‘sense’ connection it just sorts itself out somehow.
Pro Batt Ultra Battery to Battery Chargers, Non Waterproof, (Drip Resistant IP21)

...
Thanks Nigel W, yep looks like this one would do the job - I have heard that Sargent not top quality, but that maybe wrong here, and it would be nice to know how they manage this control (and why the others don't do it), I like always to know how things work as often they don't (I work with computer technology!)
Cheers John P.

 

[Nigel W]

...
Thanks Nigel W, yep looks like this one would do the job - I have heard that Sargent not top quality, but that maybe wrong here, and it would be nice to know how they manage this control (and why the others don't do it), I like always to know how things work as often they don't (I work with computer technology!)
Cheers John P.

Don’t confuse Sargent with Sterling haha
If you go to the Sterling site there are some very good pdf folders you can read which explains exactly how it works - all a bit beyond me but it does appear to be plug and play and works on mine.

 

[Pete C]

...
Thanks Nigel W, yep looks like this one would do the job - I have heard that Sargent not top quality, but that maybe wrong here, and it would be nice to know how they manage this control (and why the others don't do it), I like always to know how things work as often they don't (I work with computer technology!)
Cheers John P.

I think the answer to your question is that some chargers have more intelligence, and, based on the input voltage, decide whether it is right to power the leisure battery or not.
My Ablemail device is always fully connected - it takes its "sense" connection directly from the starter battery +ve terminal. It must decide when to turn on and off itself, and I can leave the van for 4 weeks or more, and it always starts easily i.e. the Ablemail doesn't sit there sacrificing the starter battery for the benefit of the leisure battery.

I suspect the Schaudt charger has no intelligence of this type, and so needs a "hard" signal. It seems cheaper than other similar devices too.

If I was in your shoes, I would get a more common charger. At least then you know you will get more help as there will be more users.

Pete

 

[jph99]

Ok Guys, I think you may have answered the underlying issue - get the right charger! and yes I was thinking of Sargent quality! Just found a Sterling for £164... only bit ore than the Schaudt!

... anyone want to buy a Schaudt WA 121525? .... lol

Cheers John P.

 

[Farnorthsurfer]

Might indeed end up using ignition feed on the Renogy but I have a few weeks while Jerba stick the roof on so will try and bottom out the wiring.

 

[Deaky]

There’s a pin out on the BCM that does exactly this. Get the correct repair wire and push it into the empty slot. You’d need VCDS to code that you have an AUX battery fitted but this will do what you want. I use it on mine. The charging light on my B2B doesn’t come on until the engine has been running for a few seconds. When stop start kicks in the light goes out.