L/Battery - go large or go lithium?

[t0mb0]

Do I ‘NEED’ Victron smart shunt? I am mindful I really want to try and get the dc to fc and Ablemail in under driver seat (ducting for diesel heater there). I am even tempted to sell the unused DC to DC for the new Victron XS if that helps with limited space

Arguably no one 'needs' a smart shunt for leisure applications, it really depends on whether you're desperate to know precisely how much charge you have left. Every new component you add will add to the complexity of the installation. Presumably your battery has basic charge monitoring built in?

If you're actually considering selling the Victron (and with limited space I would if it's the older run-hot version) then I'd also consider the Sterling BB1230 DC-DC because I believe (check the specs...) that it also contains a reverse trickle charger for your vehicle battery so you wouldn't need the Ablemail then either which would further simply the situation. A further step down that road would be the BBS1230 which would potentially allow you to do away with a separate solar MPPT too (again check specs with regard to your panel voltage/amps), this would simplify again (basically only one box) but the downside to consider is that in the event of a failure you lose both solar and alternator charging.

 

[Chris1983]

Arguably no one 'needs' a smart shunt for leisure applications, it really depends on whether you're desperate to know precisely how much charge you have left. Every new component you add will add to the complexity of the installation. Presumably your battery has basic charge monitoring built in?

If you're actually considering selling the Victron (and with limited space I would if it's the older run-hot version) then I'd also consider the Sterling BB1230 DC-DC because I believe (check the specs...) that it also contains a reverse trickle charger for your vehicle battery so you wouldn't need the Ablemail then either which would further simply the situation. A further step down that road would be the BBS1230 which would potentially allow you to do away with a separate solar MPPT too (again check specs with regard to your panel voltage/amps), this would simplify again (basically only one box) but the downside to consider is that in the event of a failure you lose both solar and alternator charging.

Arghhhhhh options…..

 

[Chris1983]

Would Victron xs work, as I had planned to use 12/12-18?

Thinking wiring diameters etc?

 

[ginkster]

Would Victron xs work, as I had planned to use 12/12-18?

Thinking wiring diameters etc?

I’d have a think of what power you need and your usage as it’s all too easy to get carried away and have kit that is massive overkill. The 18a Orion is absolutely fine for a 105ah battery. The XS is clearly more powerful so would charge much faster (but you would need to reduce its output to 30a anyhow) but do you really NEED DC-DC charging that fast? Mine is turned off nearly all the time as solar is more than enough nearly all the time.

A shunt is very useful as it is more accurate than the battery app which doesn’t sense low power draw.

 

[Chris1983]

I’d have a think of what power you need and your usage as it’s all too easy to get carried away and have kit that is massive overkill. The 18a Orion is absolutely fine for a 105ah battery. The XS is clearly more powerful so would charge much faster (but you would need to reduce its output to 30a anyhow) but do you really NEED DC-DC charging that fast? Mine is turned off nearly all the time as solar is more than enough nearly all the time.

A shunt is very useful as it is more accurate than the battery app which doesn’t sense low power draw.

More about size than power. If wiring xs would work wiring wise, it saves me some real estate under cramped drivers seat. That’s the only reason I’d spend more

 

[Chris1983]

View attachment 253092
Does someone fancy helping organising my tortured mind? I was thinking drawing lines as wires including where I need switches/ breakers. (This is the scope of support I needed to sort my solar). I don’t know how the beer tokens situation works but I already owe many for all the help!

Just a bump if anyone fancies drawing some lines showering me how it all connects

 

[Chris1983]

View attachment 253094
This was how my install started but now has a 250A fuse in place of the 80A with an additional pair of 4 guage lives in parallel coming off the output of the battery isolator to the 2kw inverter, it will keep evolving.
View attachment 253095
View attachment 253097

View attachment 253096

These pictures give me proper anxiety. Eg I don’t know what they show haha

 

[ginkster]

More about size than power. If wiring xs would work wiring wise, it saves me some real estate under cramped drivers seat. That’s the only reason I’d spend more

The wiring is the same. It’s certainly smaller, but not £150 smaller!! I’d suggest taking your drivers seat out and measuring up before you commit. If your heater pipes are anything like mine you may find the battery doesn’t fit on its own, let alone with other kit.

 

[Stay Frosty]

@Chris1983 On my fag packet drawing I've only shown the live conductors as all the negatives on the 12 Volt side of things can either be wire conductors or the vehicles metal body whichever is easier and these obviously won't be fused.
The DCC50S is the Renogy combined B2B and MPPT unit so takes an input from the solar and the VW alternator input that normally sits under the driver or front passenger seat, it's a chunkyish black cable with a 70A maxi fuse on the end on my 2017 T28.
The output from the DCC50S then goes to a multi fuse block to connect the leisure battery into the circuit along with an input from the Victron IP22 battery charger and a small multi way blade fuse type dist panel.
As I said on an earlier post this was my initial scheme and I've now added the 2kw inverter which connects to the leisure battery isolator output side.
In the bottom photo, which I managed to post twice, you can see the DCC50S on its side across the front of the seat base, the battery isolator is the red blob where your heels would be when seated, the 250A fuse is parallel to the DCC50S, the pile of black conductors on the drivers door side are all the negatives connections to the shunt before the final single connection in black 0 guage to the leisure battery negative post.
The battery is a Roamer 230Ah seatbase.

 

[Chris1983]

The wiring is the same. It’s certainly smaller, but not £150 smaller!! I’d suggest taking your drivers seat out and measuring up before you commit. If your heater pipes are anything like mine you may find the battery doesn’t fit on its own, let alone with other kit.

If I were to steal some real estate for passenger seat. Which kit it best being over there? Just whatever fits.

I need to take seat out and get true eyes on to see what I’m working with.

I want to really know if I can snip amber valley out and attach DC to DC in at that point as that feels like a first hurdle cleared!

You are all as always being very helpful.

I’m going to leave Solar separate as a) it’s working, and b) it’s not all eggs in one basket and c) it’s located in rear wardrobe cupboard.

 

[ginkster]

In an ideal world I’d put the DC-DC under the passenger seat to minimise the length of the cable runs but ultimately it will be whatever fits where, especially if you are wanting to use existing cables. I can’t remember the detail of your existing cables but swapping out for an 18a DC-DC may well be fine - you will need to check cable length vs power to ensure the cross-section is ok. A XS, capable of 50a, would almost certainly need the cable (and fuse) upgrading from SB and to LB. I’d get the seats out, see exactly what’s what then design the system before buying anything non-returnable.

 

[Chris1983]

In an ideal world I’d put the DC-DC under the passenger seat to minimise the length of the cable runs but ultimately it will be whatever fits where, especially if you are wanting to use existing cables. I can’t remember the detail of your existing cables but swapping out for an 18a DC-DC may well be fine - you will need to check cable length vs power to ensure the cross-section is ok. A XS, capable of 50a, would almost certainly need the cable (and fuse) upgrading from SB and to LB. I’d get the seats out, see exactly what’s what then design the system before buying anything non-returnable.

This photo is top down view, showing room to play with. Don’t even know if fogstar 105 lifepo will fit there on its side.

Next photo shows wires going to amber valley, two small spade connectors and two ‘battery sized’ wires. These latter wires both have 80amp in line fuses if that helps understand anything?

 

[ginkster]

View attachment 253174
This photo is top down view, showing room to play with. Don’t even know if fogstar 105 lifepo will fit there on its side.

Next photo shows wires going to amber valley, two small spade connectors and two ‘battery sized’ wires. These latter wires both have 80amp in line fuses if that helps understand anything?View attachment 253180

Difficult to orientate from those pics. Top one looks like there is a heater pipe running across the top which limits space. The Drift needs to go in its side as it is tall so needs some room (dimensions on the website - remember to allow for the connections).

Personally I wouldn’t read anything into the fuse sizes as there are some shocking instals around with fuses to big for the cables etc. I’d open up the conduit and see if the cable has anything printed on it, or at the very least measure the outside diameter to get a very rough idea of their cross-section. The below shows the cable size required for cable length vs current. AIM to be in the <3% voltage drop range.

 

[Chris1983]

That pic shows the heating ducting running to left (handbrake side). I HOPE fogstar 105 will fit, I have been watching YouTube clips today about having Dc to Dc under passenger swivel bench. Tempted to stick with the 12/12/18 as if no point in trying for xs as it unlikely to fit all under driver seat. Is this a fair assumption? Allows me to leave SCR wiring as is (in diameter).

 

[Chris1983]

This is starter battery setup. Again 80amp fuse in that middle of pic holder.

I have tried to measure wiring under driver seat from SCR to leisure. Looks like all similar sized, approx 15mm diameter. As per pic below.

I am leaning towards trying to find a local electrical engineer, don’t want to blow up anything.

 

[CAB]

I looked up BM2 and it looks to be a blue tooth battery state of charge indicator so I'm guessing a shunt.
My problem with blue tooth info from my DCC50S or my Roamer battery is that I'm 65 and went to school in Victorian times so struggle to understand what's going on especially as with my Roamer when it tells me utter bozwellox...
View attachment 253088
It's a decent size battery at 230Ah but 414.42Ah while great for bragging rights is just incorrect, the shunt display on the other hand is like checking your fuel guage, a split second look and done.
View attachment 253093

The BM2 is just a voltage logger.

Cheap and useful for lead-acid, but not a shunt.

 

[ginkster]

View attachment 253196
This is starter battery setup. Again 80amp fuse in that middle of pic holder.

I have tried to measure wiring under driver seat from SCR to leisure. Looks like all similar sized, approx 15mm diameter. As per pic below.

I am leaning towards trying to find a local electrical engineer, don’t want to blow up anything.

View attachment 253197

you won’t blow anything up! Take your time and follow the 7 P principle and you will be fine. And learn about your system as well.

That cable doesn’t look anything like that large, as that would be about a 70mm2 cable - huge. It looks similar to what mine had which was 8.5mm2 (about 5-6mm outside diameter) which is 63A rated (or 10mm2 at 70A) hence the concern about 80A fuse. Either of those would be ok for the 18A Orion over a 3m run but the fuse should be swapped for a 50A to protect the cable (Victron say 60A IRRC but 50 fine too). I’d lean towards battery under one seat and the DC-DC and Ablemail where the existing SCR is.

 

[Stay Frosty]

Not sure why there seems to be a reluctance to install a shunt and remote display in leisure systems when VW themselves install a shunt on the starter battery to keep the ECU informed of how that's faring?
@Chris1983 I can understand your reluctance to embark on ripping that mess out around the leisure battery as it's a bit all over the place.
Where does your solar come in and where's the existing consumers unit to handle the hook up, if you do another fag packet birds eye view plan of the present leisure layout it might be easier to streamline everything before you end up wasting money on stuff you don't need.
Apart from what's left of my Sargent EC160 the rest of the install is very KISS.
As for paying somebody to install your leisure system DIY means when something packs up you've got a pretty good idea what's gone for a Burton and there's a lot of bodgers out there happy to take your wedge.
Get yourself a decent multimeter just for voltage and continuity readings and a roll of white pvc electrical tape to label up the incoming alternator supply and trigger cable at your SCR as these can be used on the B2B unit if it needs a trigger, ideally start labelling cables both ends before you disconnect

 

[Chris1983]

I’ll get some better pics when seat out.

The solar is piggy backed with spade connectors into back of wardrobe unit.

That all works fine so want to leave that alone ideally.

The ip22 will replace the stelling EHU charger in hidden panel behind the first cupboard forwards from the wardrobe.

I ‘want’ to get a Victron B2B (had bought 12/12-18, but would consider swapping for xs if makes easier) and the Ablemail, the Victron ip22 and the fogstar 105 installed.

‘Want’ as as I look at all the wires, I am not sure I have the skill/ base knowledge.

 

[Stay Frosty]

Although my first one did die on me I run the Renogy DCC50S, latest version and this will take a solar input, the starter battery input and according to the manual will divert charge back to the starter when that battery gets below a certain level.
That means one unit potentially takes the place of the Victron 12/12/18, the Ablemail 22/2 and whatever is currently handling your solar input.