Leisure Battery Cream Crackered?

[Ayjay]

Now that we're in one place for a couple of days, I've had time to think about another plea for advice - it's pain in the 4rse as we're only just at the beginning of a 5 week trip. Apologies for any typos as I'm on my iPad.
After issues with my starter battery (which now seems to be OK), I reckon my leisure battery is probably knackered. On our first night away (last Monday) we were not on EHU and although the battery was fully charged from the 200 mile journey to Ashford, shortly after stopping with the fridge and light on, my plug in 12V battery meter thing stated showing the battery as being very low (6 - 9V but jumping momentarily up to 11V) and the fridge wasn't working properly. We were on EHU for the next 2 nights so no problems but on Thursday, we were again with out EHU and the same thing happened. The battery seems to be charging from alternator, EHU and solar but is simply not keeping the charge so I can only conclude that it needs replacing - It's a Leoch Extreme AGM 110Ah which is 4 years and has never been allowed to run flat and has always been maintained by either solar or a smart CREK charger. FWIW, these are pictures from the BM2 batter monitor app showing it's history over the last week (the summary of the week and individual days):

 

[Dellmassive]

Anything below 11.99v is considered dead flat.

And looking at your plots above there are many occasions where the battery has dropped below 11.99v.

Even down to 9.0v. which is very bad.

Is either the battery is not being allowed to fully charge before discharge cycles.... That battery is a SLA AGM 110ah from memory, so could take 24hrs or longer to charge fully.

(What are your charge sources? And ratings? Dc-dc?. Solar?.EHU charger? What watts or amps?)




Or is state of health is very bad meaning it won't hold a charge.... Ie knackered.


It recommend popping past Halfords or similar and ask the to test the leisure battery on there smart texter for a SOH report.

If it needs replacing then order a 100a Renogy lithium to your nearest Amazon locker.

 

[Ayjay]

@Dellmassive. As always, thanks for your input Lee. I've got a Ctek D250SA for DC/DC, a Victron Bluesmart IP65 for charging on EHU and a 160W solar panel on the roof, all of which I think work as they should (or would if the battery allowed it).

Over the last few weeks, the battery has been kept charged by the solar panel whilst mostly sitting on the drive and it's always had a good charge (see the graph below for week 28 May to 3 June). On Sunday, I plugged the EHU and switched the fridge to cool in advance of setting off on Monday morning. As mentioned above, it was powered by DC/DC until we arrived in Ashford and without EHU, I had to rely on the battery which was then the problem manifested itself - the story is really told by the third graph down in my post above - everything but the fridge was of in the van when we went to eat at around 1900hrs and at just after 2000, the power started draining - maybe foolishly, I left the fridge on and that then continue through the night spiking up and down until I started the engine the next morning to drive to Eurotunnel at about 0800 - at that time it was under 9V but went up as soon as we drove off. We were either driving or on EHU again until about 1600 on 9 June things started going flat again, presumably as the solar panel wasn't getting enough light to charge. As I'm sitting typing this, the plug in meter is reading 14.2V when plugged into EHU with the solar panel in bright sunshine.

I think you're very correct that the battery is quite simply knackered - TBH, it might have been foe a while but I simply haven't noticed as it's not been used and has always had a charge going into it from something. The testing at Halfords suggestion would be a good one if we were not in Spain (middle of nowhere about 30miles from Madrid) at the moment and will probably be away for another 3 weeks at least.In the meantime, I'm hoping that as long as we are driving, in sunshine or on EHU we can at least keep the fridge running - will that work and / or is it sensible?

I have accepted that the battery is for the bin when we get home when I will probably buy a Renogy 100Ah along with a Ctek D250SE to charge it as the current SA version is not lithium compatible (on the plus side, the Victron DC/DC is, I think) but that's all got to wait until we get home.

Again, thanks for the advice.

 

[DXX]

No shortage of battery suppliers in Madrid.

battery suppliers in madrid - Google Search

 

[Ayjay]

@DXX. If I can avoid that I will - apart from anything else, my Spanish language skills just aren't up to it. If we were in Italy, France or anywhere in the Middle East I'd be OK but in Spain, I'm stuck on 'hello', 'thank you' and 'two beers please'. Thats why I asked @Dellmassive will that work and / or is it sensible?

 

[Bigsidavies]

I have just replaced a Leoch extreme gel 110ah which had exactly the same issue. Moment you subjected it to any load it plummeted to well below 11v.
Never run down, always charged with ctek/solar/Victron blue smart. Mine is just 3 years old.
I’m going to try a warranty claim via alpha batteries this week. I’ll post up how I get on.
I’ve replaced it with a Renogy lithium and there’s just no comparison. Stress free useage with perfect charge monitoring via Bluetooth.
Might be worth throwing a basic LB in for the trip and going lithium when you get home.

 

[DXX]

@DXX. If I can avoid that I will - apart from anything else, my Spanish language skills just aren't up to it. If we were in Italy, France or anywhere in the Middle East I'd be OK but in Spain, I'm stuck on 'hello', 'thank you' and 'two beers please'. Thats why I asked @Dellmassive will that work and / or is it sensible?

Google Translate or just shout in English as Brit’s normally do.

 

[Dellmassive]

@Ayjay

"Thats why I asked @Dellmassive will that work and / or is it sensible?"

That's ok... To keep using the battery for now.... Just keep doing as you are.... All that will happen is the SOH will drop further.

Your upgrade plan seems sound.

And yes your Victron is already lithium capable.

 

[Bigsidavies]

@Dellmassive. As always, thanks for your input Lee. I've got a Ctek D250SA for DC/DC, a Victron Bluesmart IP65 for charging on EHU and a 160W solar panel on the roof, all of which I think work as they should (or would if the battery allowed it).

Over the last few weeks, the battery has been kept charged by the solar panel whilst mostly sitting on the drive and it's always had a good charge (see the graph below for week 28 May to 3 June). On Sunday, I plugged the EHU and switched the fridge to cool in advance of setting off on Monday morning. As mentioned above, it was powered by DC/DC until we arrived in Ashford and without EHU, I had to rely on the battery which was then the problem manifested itself - the story is really told by the third graph down in my post above - everything but the fridge was of in the van when we went to eat at around 1900hrs and at just after 2000, the power started draining - maybe foolishly, I left the fridge on and that then continue through the night spiking up and down until I started the engine the next morning to drive to Eurotunnel at about 0800 - at that time it was under 9V but went up as soon as we drove off. We were either driving or on EHU again until about 1600 on 9 June things started going flat again, presumably as the solar panel wasn't getting enough light to charge. As I'm sitting typing this, the plug in meter is reading 14.2V when plugged into EHU with the solar panel in bright sunshine.

I think you're very correct that the battery is quite simply knackered - TBH, it might have been foe a while but I simply haven't noticed as it's not been used and has always had a charge going into it from something. The testing at Halfords suggestion would be a good one if we were not in Spain (middle of nowhere about 30miles from Madrid) at the moment and will probably be away for another 3 weeks at least.In the meantime, I'm hoping that as long as we are driving, in sunshine or on EHU we can at least keep the fridge running - will that work and / or is it sensible?

I have accepted that the battery is for the bin when we get home when I will probably buy a Renogy 100Ah along with a Ctek D250SE to charge it as the current SA version is not lithium compatible (on the plus side, the Victron DC/DC is, I think) but that's all got to wait until we get home.

Again, thanks for the advice.

If I was buying a new dc-dc along with the Renogy battery I’d get a Renogy unit so it all shows up on the app. Also the ctek 250se charges the Renogy lithium in a strange way. It doesn’t keep it at 100% while driving. It hits 100% then stops charging. The fridge and stuff keep draining the LB until it’s about 85% before the ctek kicks back in. This means that you can be driving all day and end up at your stopover with 85% charge all down to timing.
I’m not sure if this is due to the Renogy BMS or a quirk of the ctek. But it is slightly annoying.

 

[Ayjay]

@Dellmassive. Again, thanks - just hope it can last another 4 weeks before going in the bin. I don't want to buy another lead battery as an emergency measure unless I absolutely have to as it will just be wasted money if I want to upgrade to lithium when we get home. We're planning to drive in the van to Greece in late August so I want everything to be tiptop for then
@Bigsidavies. Also thanks. I suspect I might take my chances as replacing the existing SA with a modern SE means that I effectively only have to do a straight swap which even an idiot like me should be able to manage.

 

[Dellmassive]

If I was buying a new dc-dc along with the Renogy battery I’d get a Renogy unit so it all shows up on the app. Also the ctek 250se charges the Renogy lithium in a strange way. It doesn’t keep it at 100% while driving. It hits 100% then stops charging. The fridge and stuff keep draining the LB until it’s about 85% before the ctek kicks back in. This means that you can be driving all day and end up at your stopover with 85% charge all down to timing.
I’m not sure if this is due to the Renogy BMS or a quirk of the ctek. But it is slightly annoying.

It's the ctek charge strategy..... I found the same when testing my d250se..

[Guide] DC-DC Charger (for leisure battery) -- How I Done It --

Thanks Lee. Or should I say Mr. Renogy! Been looking at your threads so will work out how to do it all now. Thanks bud.

www.t6forum.com

..


You can do a swap for the Renogy DC-DC charger. If you get the BT adapter you can set the charge limit to 20A so can use the same cable.

Might be worth looking at the 30A charger?

Either way, it's a good idea to check you feed cables and fuses to make sure they are suitable.

 

[Salty Spuds]

@Dellmassive. Again, thanks - just hope it can last another 4 weeks before going in the bin. I don't want to buy another lead battery as an emergency measure unless I absolutely have to as it will just be wasted money if I want to upgrade to lithium when we get home. We're planning to drive in the van to Greece in late August so I want everything to be tiptop for then
@Bigsidavies. Also thanks. I suspect I might take my chances as replacing the existing SA with a modern SE means that I effectively only have to do a straight swap which even an idiot like me should be able to manage.

Personally I wouldn’t buy another Ctek. They’re just not what they used to be imho. I’ve no experience of Renogy, so can’t comment, but I’d go Victron. It’ll be no more complicated swapping out for a Victron than another Ctek.

 

[Bigsidavies]

It's the ctek charge strategy..... I found the same when testing my d250se..

[Guide] DC-DC Charger (for leisure battery) -- How I Done It --

Thanks Lee. Or should I say Mr. Renogy! Been looking at your threads so will work out how to do it all now. Thanks bud.

www.t6forum.com

..


You can do a swap for the Renogy DC-DC charger. If you get the BT adapter you can set the charge limit to 20A so can use the same cable.

Might be worth looking at the 30A charger?

Either way, it's a good idea to check you feed cables and fuses to make sure they are suitable.

I may change to the Renogy in the future.
I’m pretty sure my cables are 16mm so be ok for the 30A. But if I change I’ll check. Thanks Lee

 

[Dellmassive]

Personally I wouldn’t buy another Ctek. They’re just not what they used to be imho. I’ve no experience of Renogy, so can’t comment, but I’d go Victron. It’ll be no more complicated swapping out for a Victron than another Ctek.

Victron is awesome.

But there DC-DC Orion offering is very good... But its BIG and run VERY HOT for just a 30A box. (It just seems it's not as refined as there other kit).... You need to add fans to run it at 30A flat out or it goes thermo nuclear with the heatsink starts pushing over 70degc!

I've sold mine on since testing.

Currently running Renogy 50A DC-DC limited to 30A (runs cool as a cucumber) and the Roamer 230ah lifepo4 and a Renogy 1000w inverter.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Victron is awesome.

But there DC-DC Orion offering is very good... But its BIG and run VERY HOT for just a 30A box. (It just seems it's not as refined as there other kit).... You need to add fans to run it at 30A flat out or it goes thermo nuclear with the heatsink starts pushing over 70degc!

I've sold mine on since testing.

Currently running Renogy 50A DC-DC limited to 30A (runs cool as a cucumber) and the Roamer 230ah lifepo4 and a Renogy 1000w inverter.

I run the Orion at full 30A, I mounted it on a piece of ally chequer plate to act as a heat sink. No additional fans or cooling & it’s under the passenger seat with the battery. No problems so far after 2 years.

 

[Dellmassive]

I run the Orion at full 30A, I mounted it on a piece of ally chequer plate to act as a heat sink. No additional fans or cooling & it’s under the passenger seat with the battery. No problems so far after 2 years.

That's good. The Orion spec is full rate 30A upto 40degc....

Above that temp the units starts throttling back to keep the temp under control.

I was seeing very hot heatsink temps.

So your ALU extra plate must be doing a good job.

 

[Ayjay]

All this talk about amps and cable sizes now worries me that the 'straight swap' that I thought I could do with my existing Ctek D250SA for the later and lithium compatible SE version might not be quite straightforward as I thought . I wanted do it that as understood that the two models are physically identical right down to the fixing screw positions.
According to the product sheets, the Ctek D250 SA outputs 'Max 14.4V (14.7V in AGM), 20A' whereas the SE is '14.4/14.7 V, 20 A, lead-acid battery types. 14.2 V, 20A, LiFePO₄'. I was happy with 20A on the old battery and would be again with the new setup.
I trust the bloke who did the original fit to use the right spec cables so assumed that I could simply fit the switch no other mods (other, of course, than the new battery).
Am I being naive?

 

[Salty Spuds]

All this talk about amps and cable sizes now worries me that the 'straight swap' that I thought I could do with my existing Ctek D250SA for the later and lithium compatible SE version might not be quite straightforward as I thought . I wanted do it that as understood that the two models are physically identical right down to the fixing screw positions.
According to the product sheets, the Ctek D250 SA outputs 'Max 14.4V (14.7V in AGM), 20A' whereas the SE is '14.4/14.7 V, 20 A, lead-acid battery types. 14.2 V, 20A, LiFePO₄'. I was happy with 20A on the old battery and would be again with the new setup.
I trust the bloke who did the original fit to use the right spec cables so assumed that I could simply fit the switch no other mods (other, of course, than the new battery).
Am I being naive?

If you’re going the lithium route, you could do with a higher output DC-DC. The beauty of Li is that it will take a much higher charge rate than Lead Acid. The optimum charge rate for Li is C/3 where C=battery capacity. So a 100Ah battery will take 100/3=33A charge. You can actually go much higher than that, but you will shorten the battery life. It might not sound much difference between 20A & 33A but you’re looking at a 60% (ish) increase in charge rate. On a long journey that won’t matter, but if you’re off grid & running the engine to charge the battery, it’s a consideration.

 

[Dellmassive]

The old to new ctek will be a physical straight swap....

Take some pics of the current install and fuses and wire's.

Including the starter battery connections...

That will give a better idea.

I'm sure the S and SE are both 20A chargers...... Just the se includes a lifepo4 profile.... But I'd have to double check before signing off in it

 

[Bigsidavies]

Yeah both 20A