Skyline Aurora Pop-Top opening on motorway?

[sensiblejohn]

Unfortunately I'm also now part of the roof catch failure club (LWB T5).

It first happened when I lent the van to a friend who was absolutely convinced the catches were fully locked. I put this down to his error on not closing the latches properly.

It subsequently happened to me on the way up the M6 , I am absolutely certain that the roof was properly closed. The drivers side catch failed, I can't work out why. The additional strain on the cam/latch on the passenger side bent it, and also partially pulled out the small bolt holding the latch into the fitting.

Unfortunately on the side of the motorway I had no option but to bend the arm back into position crudely by bashing with the wheel brace...

My latches look identical to the post above, the roof was installed in April 2021.

I have contacted Skyline and have been very disappointed with the response from Skyline. I asked if I could purchase a new pair of lock assemblies, they refused point blank and directed me to the installer.

The installed also refused to sell these to me and advised that if I took the van to him he would install new locks, but won't give me a cost for the part and quoted 3 hours labour at £60/hr plus VAT. I won't name and shame now, but if we can't agree a sensible resolution I may do...!

I've determined that they are Southco E3-1410-091 fittings. (Reference on the bag in the Skyline Aurora installation video!) but haven't found a stockist yet - anybody else got any ideas?

These latches seem to be designed for service cupboards and electric meter enclosures rather than a pop top roof, and are entirely dependent on short M6 bolts holding the latch into the mechanism.

Unfortunately I've now lost trust in the catches. I plan to replace them as soon as I can get a replacement, but I would also like to fit something as a backup... possibly like the webbing somebody mentioned above.

If I can find anywhere to order some replacement catches would anybody else like a spare or two? I'll probably end up paying more postage than the cost of the parts!!

 

[Creamytash]

Sorry this has happened to you. My installer - at the point of me dropping my van off to him advised me that he was no longer fitting Skyline roofs. He fitted many different brand of roof with the webbing retaining straps. Apperently he too was having dificulty with Skyline in their response to a catch failure experienced by one of his recent customers where the entire responsibility for the failure was placed on the installer. I had a close lucky escape.

 

[MK2Golf24v]

Try these guys.

Appian Fasteners | POP-Avdel | DIRAK | PEM | Southco | Fasteners

Leading distributors of industrial fasteners and authorised distributors for POP-Avdel, DIRAK, PEM, Southco and Camlock Systems.

appianfasteners.com

I got some spare southco keys for my skyline latches from them

 

[moomin-j]

I've determined that they are Southco E3-1410-091 fittings. (Reference on the bag in the Skyline Aurora installation video!) but haven't found a stockist yet - anybody else got any ideas?

@sensiblejohn - for your part number E3-1410-091, try these:

VISE ACTION® Compression Latch, Large Size, 8 mm Square, Zinc Alloy, Chrome Plated, Bright, 37 mm (1.46 in) Grip

Southco’s VISE ACTION® Compression latches provide mechanical advantage, ensuring tight, robust vibration resistant door closure to seal out water and dust in the most strenuous applications. The smooth operation of the VISE ACTION® design aligns the cam behind the frame, then draws it straight...

southco.com

Product info:

https://files.southco.com/static/Literature/e3.en.pdf

Contact at Zygology:

 

[Paint]

Unfortunately I'm also now part of the roof catch failure club (LWB T5).

It first happened when I lent the van to a friend who was absolutely convinced the catches were fully locked. I put this down to his error on not closing the latches properly.

It subsequently happened to me on the way up the M6 , I am absolutely certain that the roof was properly closed. The drivers side catch failed, I can't work out why. The additional strain on the cam/latch on the passenger side bent it, and also partially pulled out the small bolt holding the latch into the fitting.

Unfortunately on the side of the motorway I had no option but to bend the arm back into position crudely by bashing with the wheel brace...

My latches look identical to the post above, the roof was installed in April 2021.

I have contacted Skyline and have been very disappointed with the response from Skyline. I asked if I could purchase a new pair of lock assemblies, they refused point blank and directed me to the installer.

The installed also refused to sell these to me and advised that if I took the van to him he would install new locks, but won't give me a cost for the part and quoted 3 hours labour at £60/hr plus VAT. I won't name and shame now, but if we can't agree a sensible resolution I may do...!

I've determined that they are Southco E3-1410-091 fittings. (Reference on the bag in the Skyline Aurora installation video!) but haven't found a stockist yet - anybody else got any ideas?

These latches seem to be designed for service cupboards and electric meter enclosures rather than a pop top roof, and are entirely dependent on short M6 bolts holding the latch into the mechanism.

Unfortunately I've now lost trust in the catches. I plan to replace them as soon as I can get a replacement, but I would also like to fit something as a backup... possibly like the webbing somebody mentioned above.

If I can find anywhere to order some replacement catches would anybody else like a spare or two? I'll probably end up paying more postage than the cost of the parts!

I drove down to skyline near weston super mare when I thought my roof was failing the were brilliant would not let me drive it away as dangerous and replaced the cams free of charge I see you are just over a hour from Weston so might be worth a chance

 

[McFlude]

I drove down to skyline near weston super mare when I thought my roof was failing the were brilliant would not let me drive it away as dangerous and replaced the cams free of charge I see you are just over a hour from Weston so might be worth a chance

Welcome aboard.
I made a post last year as I had my roof open on two occasions. After the second incident I had new cams fitted by my installer which were a slightly different design which I consider are much stronger. I have now had 7000 trouble free miles without a problems so have every confidence in them.
Although I believe that the early cams were weak and prone to bending I cannot hand on heart verify and prove that this was the cause of the roof opening. The second time it happened both cams were in the forward position and I believe that it was properly closed. But did it happen as a result of the first lifting which caused the roof to twist which may have contributed to the cams not engaging properly?
I believe that the slightly amended design is now robust and the roof has been realigned. However although I have my suspicions that the cams were not strong enough I have some sympathy for Skyline in not being able to acknowledge that there was a possible early fault. Any omission could result in a flood of warranty claims where proof of fault cannot genuinely be established and how are they able to agree to replace something at their cost when the problem may have been caused by someone forgetting to close the roof properly?
I would strongly advise that you change the cams though as mine were a similar vintage to yours. Also check that the roof is fitting square. It seems that your installer has budgeted for replacing the whole lock assembly (I think that the parts are about £70) However I suspect that the locks are fine and as the roof is probably now out of warranty the installer should have no issues with just providing you with replacement cams which you could fit yourself. They are a straight swap and just bolt on and should need no adjustment. I must admit that before I went back to my installer, who fortunately replaced my cams, I had considered approaching a local blacksmith to have new hardened steel cams made with a deeper and longer swage.

 

[Bav]

...I have some sympathy for Skyline in not being able to acknowledge that there was a possible early fault. Any omission could result in a flood of warranty claims...

Really? You have sympathy with them knowingly allowing people to drive around with dodgy roofs rather than facing up to the consequences of their poor design? That's an opinion, but not one I share.

 

[McFlude]

Really? You have sympathy with them knowingly allowing people to drive around with dodgy roofs rather than facing up to the consequences of their poor design? That's an opinion, but not one I share.

That opinion is informed by being aware that otherwise intelligent people get distracted and do stupid things at times, putting petrol in a diesel car for instance. I cannot be absolutely certain that every instance of roofs flying up is due to a design fault and not due to human error in failing to latch the roof properly. I consider that those early cams were weak and not be able to withstand the air pressure if one side of the roof is not properly latched. I reinforced the opinion that they were weak after my roof lifted on the second occasion but was this because I had straightened the original cam or because the roof had twisted on the first occasion? So although I suspect that the original cams were not man enough to withstand abuse there is no way of proving that they were inadequate for securing the roof if properly latched. But my suspicion that the cams were weak does not indicate that this is the reason that a roof fails. How could you prove it? If the roof is properly latched how does the air get underneath to bend the cams? The slight difference in design of the cams currently fitted to my van may be seen as catching Skyline holding a smoking gun. However, in my eyes as an injured party, unless it could be established beyond all reasonable doubt that the sole reason that my roof lifted was due to a design fault and not user error my verdict is that they should be innocent until proved guilty.

 

[Grim Reaper]

There is the possibility that if there's either too much stuff up on the bed or the canvas hasn't been folded correctly to keep it low profile, that when the roof has been clamped down it has overpowered the cam. The specs for the non adjustable camlock says 67 lbft of clamping torque, that's a fair amount (I doubt anyone could undo a nut at 67 lbft with their fingers) the bent cams have a disadvantage already compared to the flat ones in that they are a longer bit of metal and therefore easier to bend.

 

[drinfinity]

I looked at Skyline, but the frequency of failure put me off and I have a strap-down roof.

When I investigate an incident, I am not satisfied with stopping at human error. A safe system makes it difficult by design for users to make a catastrophic error. Looking over the history of our fleet of vehicles on this site, we have roof failures which are almost all from one manufacturer, but broadly the same population of users.

Looking forward, we do the risk assessment. In this case, we have a hazard with a high impact (possible catastrophic roof failure), medium incidence (several reports just on this site) and low detectability (almost impossible to tell if latch is in fault condition). That gives a high risk we have to mitigate.

Relying on user behaviour of members of the public, I would argue, is not a good mitigation strategy. We could make it easier to latch every time (as done by Ford on their Model T doors), or make it obvious if not closed (dashboard indication on every vehicle door, or a strap dangling in your face) or less catastrophic failure (like a strap which has some security even if not fully tight).

 

[DXX]

Relying on user behaviour of members of the public, I would argue, is not a good mitigation strategy

Exactly, there’s a onus on the manufacturer to ensure that a design is as risk free as reasonably possible. That clearly isn’t the case, I’ve seen better securing with baling twine on farm gates.

 

[Bav]

That opinion is informed by being aware that otherwise intelligent people get distracted and do stupid things at times, putting petrol in a diesel car for instance. I cannot be absolutely certain that every instance of roofs flying up is due to a design fault and not due to human error in failing to latch the roof properly. I consider that those early cams were weak and not be able to withstand the air pressure if one side of the roof is not properly latched. I reinforced the opinion that they were weak after my roof lifted on the second occasion but was this because I had straightened the original cam or because the roof had twisted on the first occasion? So although I suspect that the original cams were not man enough to withstand abuse there is no way of proving that they were inadequate for securing the roof if properly latched. But my suspicion that the cams were weak does not indicate that this is the reason that a roof fails. How could you prove it? If the roof is properly latched how does the air get underneath to bend the cams? The slight difference in design of the cams currently fitted to my van may be seen as catching Skyline holding a smoking gun. However, in my eyes as an injured party, unless it could be established beyond all reasonable doubt that the sole reason that my roof lifted was due to a design fault and not user error my verdict is that they should be innocent until proved guilty.

The absence of reports of any other roofs opening in this manner, versus quite a few reports of Skylines in just this one thread would suggest either that Skyline owners are peculiarly absent-minded or that the locking mechanism is prone to failure. Agreed, this evidence doesn't satisfy the threshold of "beyond reasonable doubt", but it is a prima facie case that any respectable company would seek to investigate.

 

[Deleted Member]

There’s a member on here who swears Skyline are the greatest and HiLo are crap, even though they own neither.

 

[Heath1984]

Overall the quality from Skyline is definitely one of the best available. I've looked around lots of different manufacturers when looking around vans on forecourts and have to say none have been to the skyline quality. Rear brackets look thicker than others and the canvas is far more substantial, although this does make it tricky to envelope fold when closing and get a perfect drop/close. So I'm guessing this is where the throbber is coming from. It's not me btw! I hope

That said, although I've never had any issues with the catches, I have to admit that they are a concern. The catch idea is brilliant as I'm sure others will agree, so easy and neat, it takes me approximately 10 seconds to secure. You can see the rubber compress when locking so it makes it hard to understand why some are failing.

Bringing me to my point! Mine was fitted by Skyline North and I think, based on previous posts, this looks to be a major factor. I don't think I have yet come across a poptop fitted by Skyline that has failed, although I'm more than happy to be corrected if this is not the case. It seems that fitting a Skyline is a fine art which would explain why possibly some fitters have decided so stock other brands. You can definitely see that if fitted poorly, allowing for a slight gap to occur due to play from loose catches, the wind at 70mph could generate some serious force causing the catches to bend upwards. So in conclusion, I agree that Skyline should be looking at this issue very seriously with a view to improving the design to reduce the potential of failure.

 

[Bri1701]

Also bear in mind that the airflow over the van at speed could well be producing a negative pressure over the roof trying to lift it, not just because there is a gap at the front.

 

[B3N]

The absence of reports of any other roofs opening in this manner, versus quite a few reports of Skylines in just this one thread would suggest either that Skyline owners are peculiarly absent-minded or that the locking mechanism is prone to failure. Agreed, this evidence doesn't satisfy the threshold of "beyond reasonable doubt", but it is a prima facie case that any respectable company would seek to investigate.

…or (…the third option)… it hasn’t been installed properly.
I’ve a skyline aurora (which has been spot on in the 6months motorway driving I’ve had it) and can see that if installed correct it should be failsafe. I can also see that it would be very easy to not install it correctly in which case the catches would fail to do their job and the roof could open. My installer was well aware of all this and seemed meticulous in doing it right. Fingers crossed!

 

[Bav]

…or (…the third option)… it hasn’t been installed properly.
I’ve a skyline aurora (which has been spot on in the 6months motorway driving I’ve had it) and can see that if installed correct it should be failsafe. I can also see that it would be very easy to not install it correctly in which case the catches would fail to do their job and the roof could open. My installer was well aware of all this and seemed meticulous in doing it right. Fingers crossed!

Good point - shouldn't overlook the possibility of installer error, though I'd still hope the manufacturer would be inquisitive enough to investigate if they were getting multiple reports of issues.

 

[Creamytash]

My installer was an agent for Skyline right up to the week before he was to install my Skyline Aurora. He phoned me to say that he was no longer fitting Syline roofs because of repeated incidents of catches failing causing roofs blowing open on the move. He said if I still wanted him to fit a roof for me it would be of another manufacturer and of a traditional strap down fastening. I am so gratefull for his honesty and his attitude to customer care, I have not had any problems with my roof. I wrote a post on here about my experience to try and inform others about the repeated catch failings of Skyline roofs which as I expected was met with mixed reactions - that was over a year ago. A lot more Skyline roofs have blown open since then. Like I said in my post on the subject - you pays your money and you makes your chioce.

 

[sensiblejohn]

A update for anybody that is interested.

No further response from Skyline or the installer. Have tried calling both and have sent a further email with photos and videos today. Not sure why I'm not receiving the top end customer service that Skyline seem famous for!

I spent a bit more time investigating at the weekend, see photos and video links below.

My analysis / conclusion / assumptions:

The whole mechanism relies on 2 M6 bolts, see first photo, to hold the cam in position. These should have been fitted with threadlock, but don't appear to have been. They presumably worked loose, allowed for a bit of movement and air to get under the pop top, bending the cams and allowing the roof to open.

There is also significant 'play' in the main both of the latch.

Ultimately I would question whether this whole assembly is fit for purpose.





Passenger Cam 1

Passenger Cam 2

Drivers Cam 1

 

[sensiblejohn]

@sensiblejohn - for your part number E3-1410-091, try these:

VISE ACTION® Compression Latch, Large Size, 8 mm Square, Zinc Alloy, Chrome Plated, Bright, 37 mm (1.46 in) Grip

Southco’s VISE ACTION® Compression latches provide mechanical advantage, ensuring tight, robust vibration resistant door closure to seal out water and dust in the most strenuous applications. The smooth operation of the VISE ACTION® design aligns the cam behind the frame, then draws it straight...

southco.com

Product info:

https://files.southco.com/static/Literature/e3.en.pdf

Contact at Zygology:
View attachment 219956

Thanks!

Just spoke to Zygology, good news is a new latch is £25 and they are 10 minutes away from me. The bad news is that it's a 30 working day lead time!