The Big wheel Gearbox debate

I have had this comment in an email from Swiss vans when inquiring about 20" wheels
"One of the boys in the office had a customer whose Speedo was out by 5mph and his steering column went wrong and VW refused to fix it as the only recommend up to 18”.
There is obviously a reason why VW are standing ground on this but I've yet to understand what stress's a 20" wheel can really do over the recommended 18's to the running gear on these Vans.
 
Morning all, interesting topic this and seems to crop up all over the internet as mentioned. My way of looking at this is from a simple physics point of view. The force on the gearbox is due to the engine/gearbox combo trying to spin the front wheels around the van or spin the van around the wheels and the opposing forces this creates (think Newton once stated this!?!). Clearly it is difficult to do the latter due to 2-3 tonnes plus gravity being a bit harder to shift than 50kg ish of alloy and rubber to rotate, so the wheels turn and the van moves forward. The forces opposing are driven by the laws of physics and as you may recall from school Force = Mass x Acceleration. So the forces are the weight(mass) and rotational acceleration of the driven wheels versus the weight and horizontal acceleration of the van forwards. These should be equal (more or less if we ignore other minor frictional losses).

As you can see increasing the weight of the wheels, the weight of the van or sticking your foot to the floor will increase the forces (and therefore gearbox strain). As far as I can see, and please tell me if my thought process is flawed here, but increasing the weight of the wheels by a few kgs is a pi$$ in the ocean compared to having a fully loaded van or flooring it everywhere. Clearly the worst combination is to have heavier wheels, a massive load and giving it beans all day long, and the latter two can have a much more dramatic impact on the forces.

Ultimately the engine is only able to put out so much power and torque and this will limit the mass x acceleration, more mass less acceleration, and vice versa, so as far as I can see it the way to get the maximum force (or potential gearbox/driveshaft damage as alluded to in this thread) is to have a heavy right foot, and wheel weight becomes pretty insignificant compared to this.

I would say that if you want to run bigger wheels, do so, and if you are really worried, the just drive a little lighter on the gas, or take some load out of the van as they are much greater factors. Common sense would also point to this, what's less effort for you, to carry one bag of sand wearing heavy shoes or two bags wearing trainers?
Exactly!. Even with a full camper conversion the van is pulling far less than its max payload. Running 20s is so small a change to the load in my mind it will make zero difference to the gear box load on a camper.

I'm even less concerned since my load rated 20s weigh only 10kg each!. My steel wheels feel heavier
 
The issue is due to rotational inertia.
Swing a tennis ball on a short piece of string and you can swing it around without minimal effort.
Now double the length of the string and the effort required to swing it around is allot more. Or keep the string the same length but use a cricket ball. More effort.
Same theory spoke to wheels. Rotational mass is further out on the bigger wheels even if overall wheel diameter is the same.

Of course wheel weight IS the main factor here.

On my 20s with 275/35/20 I had to have my pendle remap torque taken back a tad too stop the rotational vibrating gearbox judder I was getting at the turbo came in.
Martin delayed the peak torque a few hundred rpm and voila....smoooooooth.

My 20s are load rated for a t32 and weight 28kg with the tyres. About 17kg per wheel for a 20x9. Quite heavy.

My new wheels are 19x8.5 front 19x10 rear. 245/45 & 275/40 respectively. Same overall diameter as the 20s I was running. 22.5kg front with tyres 23.5kg rear with tyres.
16" Steel wheels and tyres weight 22kg.

The acceleration feels abit more brisk and less heavy, handling isn't as good when weight is fully transferred, ride quality is the same as the 20s.
I changed to 19s to see if it will improve my poor fuel economy. One full tank in and so far. No improvement.

I'll use the tyres until worn. If it continues to not improve I'll go back to my 20s as I prefer how they look and the wider front tyres for more race car....i mean sensible work van.
 
I see the point you are trying to make but that's not quite right. You are right in that weight is the main factor but it is not the main factor for the gearbox stresses.

Rotational inertia is something the wheels have once they are moving and as you correctly noted that is a factor of the weight but also the speed of rotation. However, that rotation is in the same direction as the gearbox is driving so therefore the engine via the gearbox has created that inertia, or is trying to increase it, it is not working against it. Overcoming that inertia is having to work to stop it and therefore the things affected are brakes and suspension not the gearbox.

Using your tennis/cricket ball analogy, yes it is more difficult to rotate the cricket ball but the force you have available in your arm (like a gearbox) has a maximum. Again back to physics F=ma where the F is limited so as you increase the mass (of the wheel or ball) you cannot accelerate as fast which is exactly what happens to both wheel and ball, but the forces haven't changed. Which is also why your 19's accelerate quicker as the force applied is the same to a lower mass.

So back to our gearbox, the only thing that changes the force on it, is the drive from the engine, the wheel is just the opposing force to that and will increase rotation depending on it's weight. Even a super heavy van will not alter the force, just affect how quickly it gets going. So in my view I can understand VW quibbling over suspension issues with big wheels but gearbox, nah, we should be telling them the gearbox hasn't been designed to match their engine torque characteristics.
 
I have no doubt you know what you are talking about - and look forward to reading about your successful arguement with VW when it comes to a warranty gearbox issue. In reality do I think you'll win, sorry, but no.
I like big wheels, thinking 20's or 21's myself.
 
You are probably right sadly! Having the laws of physics behind you ain't necessarily going to overcome corporate BS....unless of course there is another legitimate reason? For that reason every time I visit a VW dealer I will stick my 17"ers back on.
 
I have no doubt you know what you are talking about - and look forward to reading about your successful arguement with VW when it comes to a warranty gearbox issue. In reality do I think you'll win, sorry, but no.
I like big wheels, thinking 20's or 21's myself.
Same. I'll take my chances with my 20s
 
Anyone able to point me in the direction of a thread I once found on off-road tires and now cannot find it? I'm a mountain biker and off road in 2wd is frequent, I couldn't afford 4wd at the time. any way anyone able to tell me where to find it or advise tire choice and size for standard 17" t32 t6 wheels ?
 
would increasing the contact patch also increase the stresses going through the drive train
e.g. standard wheels, give it the beans, the wheels spin until inertia is overcome. 20's with a larger contact patch, more weight would need a lot more force to lose traction where normally those stresses would be 'relieved' by spin ???
 
This is a fantastically technical thread and if I had the capacity to understand it all it could be educational. Dispite this when it's comes to warranty and wheels over 18" VW will still say not covered. If you're not fussed on warranty id say crack on.
 
This is a fantastically technical thread and if I had the capacity to understand it all it could be educational. Dispite this when it's comes to warranty and wheels over 18" VW will still say not covered. If you're not fussed on warranty id say crack on.
This is the key point really I would have thought. Whether having big wheels puts extra strain on or not, it gives VW a get-out, and they'll probably take it if they can get away with it.
 
It is all about the "rotational moment of inertia", the overall mass of the wheel tyre are also relevant, but the bit that really matters is where the mass is relevant to the centre of the hub.
The ice scatter best demonstrates this when the are spinning on a vertical axis and they pull their arms in, their rpm increases dramatically; then push their arms out and they slow down. Their energy is constant(ish), so when the weight is moved outwards the revolutions slow, and it reverses back as the arms are moved in.
A gyroscope has most of its mass in its outer RL-3500.1L.jpg-2.png
(opps a bit big).
So the energy stored in a rotating wheels is mostly about where that weight is. The energy stored = how hard it is to spin the wheel up=how hard it is to brake the spinning wheel=how hard it is to disturb the spinning wheel (steering)
As the distance from the centre doubles, then the energy or inertia quadruples, a squared relationship.
The gyroscope effect is also responsible for keeping you moving in a straight line, so it is harder on steering and tyres to change direction with a high moment of inertia. (ask any motorbike racer)
Back to the debate, for a constant rolling radius, the lowest moment of inertia will be easier to accelerate/brake/turn; and that is a wheel tyre with the lowest weight particularly around the tyre/rim area and not so much around around the centre part.

When I ran AllTerrain tyres on my T5 which are heavy old lumps because of tread and puncture/cut resistance etc, you could certainly tell the driving characteristics had altered (oh and they were 7.5% bigger).

Increasing your tyres width also has a big impact on this; the tyre is relatively heavy and is further from the centre of the hub than the wheel; but sometimes with lower profile tyres you have to go wider to get the load ratings

I guess the question is how relevant is all this compare to the 3tonne gross weight of the vehicle you are trying to accelerate/brake/turn; with its brick like aerodynamics; I could try and working it out, but I would guess most of us a bored shitless by now;)

I think that a light weight larger diameter wheel with a light weight tyre (low profile - not much side wall), and reasonably narrow in section width would be fine in terms of load on the transmission/suspension; if your rolling radius increases that will alter the gearing though. What VW(UK) or a dealer think is a totally different matter:mad:

If you look at similar size vehicles like an SUV's, the manufacturer will offer from 17"/18" upto 22" size wheels on the same model say a Rangerover/Volvo XC etc, so surely it can't make that much difference. VW probably resist the larger wheels, because tyres become such a problem re load rating etc, and the fact that van wheels are not standard sizing compared to most SUV's which share similar tyre sizes.
I wonder though when the T7 appears if it will keep the same size of wheel/tyres that have been around for so long. Particularly with all electric models, which seem to favour larger diameter wheels, and often skinnier
 
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I guess what we really need is a list o_O wheel weight, tyre weight and some kind of formula for the stress increase or decrease for a specific combination.
 
I have 20s but they are light weight. I also dont have warranty as I bought the van used. So I am not going to worry about it too much. When my gearbox fails hopefully technology will have advanced enough to allow an electric engine to be transplanted in giving 5000 miles between charges
 
I have 20s but they are light weight. I also dont have warranty as I bought the van used. So I am not going to worry about it too much. When my gearbox fails hopefully technology will have advanced enough to allow an electric engine to be transplanted in giving 5000 miles between charges
I don't think I would either, the big german tuning houses like MTM and ABT offer 20" wheels/tyres for T6's so I guess there can't be much of a problem in the real world.
 
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