Van alarm going off at 6am

[Dellmassive]

FYI . . .

here is my last 10 days of the starter battery. (standard OEM 75ah Varta, just USB wifi connected 24/4)


you can see mine drops about 0.1v per 24hr day, starting from around 12.4v, dropping to about 11.9v . . . . but it will still start the van even at that point . . .

a lazy/poor/weak battery would fail to start the van at 11.9v . . . . it would just die and end up a non-start


As an example and also a reference for you to compare too.


4/11/20 to 14/11/20 . . . .








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these readings above are from a BM2 battery monitor connected to the starter battery:

Auto Battery Monitor BM2 Bluetooth 4.0 12V Device Car: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

Auto Battery Monitor BM2 Bluetooth 4.0 12V Device Car: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

amzn.to

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[czmate1999]

Do you think, looking at the charts, that it is likely to drop to critical overnight? Don’t want to pee my neighbours off again this weekend.

 

[Flyingspanner]

I like to use the shunt built into the van (the ecu on the negative terminal of the battery... Incidentally the reason it has a cover on it is to persuade you NOT to jump start with negative from jump leads on the battery negative post as you can destroy the ecu and the battery manager needs to know any external current through the system) known as word 61 or on some vehicles it is a LIN slave from word 19, and measured values to see the SOC of the battery. Also gives you internal resistance, current taken by the battery, during charge, output of alternator in amps volts and watts inc reserve capacity, current drain info etc etc. Also you can see the last triggers on the alarm. With ODIS you can run a parasitic current test over 20 mins or 70 mins. It is a great source of information if you know how to interpret it's info.

 

[czmate1999]

I like to use the shunt built into the van (the ecu on the negative terminal of the battery... Incidentally the reason it has a cover on it is to persuade you NOT to jump start with negative from jump leads on the battery negative post as you can destroy the ecu and the battery manager needs to know any external current through the system) known as word 61 or on some vehicles it is a LIN slave from word 19, and measured values to see the SOC of the battery. Also gives you internal resistance, current taken by the battery, during charge, output of alternator in amps volts and watts inc reserve capacity, current drain info etc etc. Also you can see the last triggers on the alarm. With ODIS you can run a parasitic current test over 20 mins or 70 mins. It is a great source of information if you know how to interpret it's info.

Have to confess vehicle electrics are not my thing, but what you said sounds good .

The battery got down to 11.99 on Sunday evening so I plugged it in from 9pm to 7am. I then did a 40mile journey. You can see charts below. After the journey, I disconnected the da



I’ll leave it a day or two and post the next charts.

 

[Flyingspanner]

Looks like it has a parasitic drain as dropping off already. I would run an odis test on that, a quick 20 min test would show up how many mA or even worse A it is draining.

Look at it like a bucket of water with a hole drilled in its side just under the top of the bucket, this represents a fully charged battery of 12.6V.
Turn the tap on and the level rises right to the top and spills over which you could look at 14.7V for a T6 (when it is charging), it won't fill any more as the regulator system is holding it at 14.7-15V volts or in this simplistic case, spilling over the top.
Turn the tap off and the water level drops back (voltage) leaks out of the hole in the side then stops draining when the level gets below the hole in the side, but the bucket is still filled and wont drain back anymore. This is a fully charged battery. If you drill a hole in the bottom of the bucket, the water will slowly drain away depending on the size or quantities of holes you drilled. These holes in the bottom represent consumers on the vehicle which could be draining the battery. If you left the tap off for a few days, the bucket would be empty, but run the tap every day, it could keep water in the bucket even with the holes in the bottom unless they were very large.
A large hole would be something like the radiator fan running on after a DPF regen (can run upto 40 mins).
Smaller hole side lights left on.
Unseen hole _ heated mirrors or windscreen stuck on
Unseen large hole- Alternator diode fault, put a current clamp on the engine earth strap with the keys out, I have seen 2A drain due to blown alternator diodes.
Then you come to the sporadic drains where a relay sticks if it has been on for a while and the points arc so when you turn the switch off, the relay, although no longer energised, keeps the current flowing through the closed points.
Ecu's can wake the CAN bus intermittently which are difficult to pinpoint.
Big issue at the moment is factory non approved insurance dongles fitted into the OBD port interfering with the CAN Bus causing discharged batteries.

And a battery which self discharged is like having a heater in the bucket evaporating the water off.
A heavily sulfated battery is like having a lid on the bucket with a small hole in it which restricts the amount of water can get in. With a current clamp this would look like 2-5A,for a faulty battery, take the lid off which would represent a flat but good battery and it will fill quickly, 80A on the current clamp. This reduces as the battery charges, if it does not and the battery gets very hot, there could be a shorted plate due to damage or sulphation.
With the MVB of the battery manager all of this can be seen.
So internal resistance of a good battery will be around 3-6 mega ohms, a knackered battery will be above 20.

 

[Flyingspanner]

I used your photo, hope you don’t mind.

I don’t like the look of the drains marked.

 

[Dellmassive]

Thats my van....(dellmassive)

I think @czmate1999 battery draw is the dashcam, if its connected to the starter battery.

That plot was me parked up with indicators on for 6hours or so.

Ended up as a no-start that needed a jump start.... with the boost pack.

I've got more normal 24hr plots above.

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[Flyingspanner]

Thats my van....(dellmassive)

I think @czmate1999 battery draw is the dashcam, if its connected to the starter battery.

That plot was me parked up with indicators on for 6hours or so.

Ended up as a no-start that needed a jump start.... with the boost pack.

I've got more normal 24hr plots above.

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Be Advised, this info is logged in the battery manager history, if the battery fails in the future, they (factory not the dealer) could kick a claim out as this event could have shortened the battery life.
I run my dash cam off a Blackvue B124x which charges off the factory installed battery under the seat so no danger of draining the starter battery. This is also charged when it is laid up due to some kin virus by plugging a CETEK charger into the van via the towing socket so kept charged fully via the mains. By fitting a modified relay in place of the factory 100 relay under the seat, it also charges the starter battery.

 

[Ads_Essex]

By fitting a modified relay in place of the factory 100 relay under the seat, it also charges the starter battery.

What is this wizardry that you talk about?

 

[Flyingspanner]

OK so under the seat with a factory fitted auxiliary battery, the split from the starter battery is handled by the 100 Relay next to the battery. This is controlled via J519 BCM and the engine ecu depending on what is required.
When the engine is off, if you try to charge the starter battery VIA factory 13 pin socket (2019) tow socket, it will ONLY charge the aux battery. If you have a low output charger, charge the aux battery first, then fit a modified relay in place of the 100 relay to bridge the starter and aux batteries together, it will then charge the starter battery too.
YOU MUST REMEMBER to refit the unmodified 100 relay when the van is no longer laid up. My CETEK can do both at the same time.
All you need to do is open a SPARE 100 relay and bridge 30 and 87 (the large contacts) so it is always engaged. I wrap engine bay tape in a loop around the relay to make it easy to pull out and swap over with the unmodified 100 relay).

 

[Dellmassive]

VSR Aux-to-Stater by the sounds of it.... via a EHU charger conected to the tow socket?

 

[czmate1999]

Hi @Dellmassive,

Hope you are well. Please see below for an update on state of battery, still seems to be showing a steady rate of discharge, even with dash cams unplugged...

Would be good to get your/everyones thoughts on whether this is normal or if there is a wider issue.

Cheers

CZ.

---
Info:
15 Nov - Plugged battery in to Mains at 2100
16 Nov - Unplugged battery at 0700 and drove 40 miles round trip. Arrived home and unplugged power cable from both front and rear dash cams (Blackvue) - did not touch fuses.

Have not used van since 16 Nov. Have used key fob to open van maybe 3 times over the course of the week.

19 Nov - started engine on first try - crank test results below.
---

 

[Flyingspanner]

I would fit an amp clamp around the battery to body negative to see what sort of drain you have. You MAy be able to see this info through word 61 (battery Manager on VCDS, I have not tried with the vag com, but you will see it on ODIS S, you will also have a test to see parasitic drain on the ODIS-S route.
Anything above around 70mA is too high (factory spec) so that would be 0.07 A on the meter. 500mA or 0.5A on the meter would be something like a glovebox light.
ECU's on the van take time to shut down, the rear cargo bay light, IF LEFT ON, (on windowless vans, not tried on window vans) can stay on for around 11 mins then turn itself off with the doors locked. You may have something connected to the OBDII port which is preventing the CAN Bus shutting down like an insurance dongle for example.
Keep it simple to start, don't pull any fuses or you could remove any evidence of a drain which may not come back when reinserting the fuse. More in depth tests are needed for these type of faults, but for now, you need to see the static current drain on the battery, which it obviously does have, Finding the cause is the challenge.

 

[czmate1999]

I would fit an amp clamp around the battery to body negative to see what sort of drain you have. You MAy be able to see this info through word 61 (battery Manager on VCDS, I have not tried with the vag com, but you will see it on ODIS S, you will also have a test to see parasitic drain on the ODIS-S route.
Anything above around 70mA is too high (factory spec) so that would be 0.07 A on the meter. 500mA or 0.5A on the meter would be something like a glovebox light.
ECU's on the van take time to shut down, the rear cargo bay light, IF LEFT ON, (on windowless vans, not tried on window vans) can stay on for around 11 mins then turn itself off with the doors locked. You may have something connected to the OBDII port which is preventing the CAN Bus shutting down like an insurance dongle for example.
Keep it simple to start, don't pull any fuses or you could remove any evidence of a drain which may not come back when reinserting the fuse. More in depth tests are needed for these type of faults, but for now, you need to see the static current drain on the battery, which it obviously does have, Finding the cause is the challenge.

thanks, I have a Ghost fitted. Not sure what that takes...

 

[czmate1999]

FYI.

rand engine for 25 mins and turned off at 1425. Here is current reading,

 

[ThreeBridgeT6]

I wouldn't have thought that a Ghost would have an active current draw if I understand the system correctly. Isn't it an extra level of immobilisation that requires a combination of actions before you can start the engine? What about a tracker? I suspect that has a very small but permanent current draw, but not enough to flatten the starter battery. Also, don't you have 'tinterweb' in your van, and if so, is it wired into your starter or leisure battery/s?? Mine takes a permanent feed from one of the USB ports in the light puck at the rear which is on the leisure circuit.

 

[Flyingspanner]

So a quick test would be to simply remove your ghost and see if it still drops over the next few days

 

[Flyingspanner]

Anything connected like your USB Wi-fi( just seen this at start of thread) WILL cause your battery to drain. Mystery solved??

 

[czmate1999]

Anything connected like your USB Wi-fi( just seen this at start of thread) WILL cause your battery to drain. Mystery solved??

no modem/mifi. I use my phone. Literally have nothing plugged in to van battery. The ghost is hardwired to the cam bus so no possibility to disconnect. I’m just really puzzled. I would expect to be able to leave the van for at least 3 weeks without an issue...

 

[Flyingspanner]

Get a current clamp around the battery negative lead and see what current is draining out, anything more than 70mA indicates something on the van is draining the battery which is why it could be going flat, unless the battery is on it's way out for whatever reason. Otherwise it is just guess work, if you have a hole in the bucket, the water will leak out.