Are EVs the way forward?

[The Flying Scotsman]

There are a few things on this awesome discussion that caught my eye. I’ve rammed on my tin foil hat a bit squiffy and downed my tofu double fast just to join in!

Water abundance- yes, there is plenty of it but it’s salty. Freshwater is not as abundant as people think and will become a problem at some point. You can build desalination plants but they use huge amounts of energy.

Volcanoes being the root cause of ‘climate change’ based on the co2 they belch out. That’s a load of cheese balls. They account for a fraction of the gas production from human activities. And the focus on ‘the environment’ forgets one another thing… human health (and the costs of healthcare). I’m sure big oil love and provoke this single focus knowing folk will argue over it because one things for sure… we won’t argue that we want to be healthy and not die early. And yet pollution causes premature death after long suffering and decline. It causes cancers, dementia, strokes, heart disease, chronic inflammation… add in the fact that a warmer environment encourages viruses and their spread and it’s a double whammy.
Here in the UK we all chip in for healthcare via our taxes/national insurance and a healthy dose of this money is spent prolonging lives that are tailing off too fast due to pollution.

I’m sure something like 95% (correct me if I’ve over egged this figure) of journeys I the UK are under 5 miles and for these EVs would be perfect.
As others have said though the ownership model is not cool (too expensive, almost uninsurable, charging can be a problem as not everyone has a drive etc). Something more like enterprise car club would work better. As for charging we have charge bollards on no end of roads in Coventry- way too many for the amount of cars, but that’s good as it’s slowly encouraging folk by showing they can buy a car and charge it. However, these would work brilliantly with hire/pool cars as mentioned above.

As Bav and others have said… EVs are part of the solution. People also need to remember the problem isn’t just one issue (the environment) too.

Don’t know where you read anyone accusing volcanoes as the source of “climate change” from ??
What I said was compare the amount of CO2 that the UK omits as a whole and compare that to the amount of CO2 a volcano puts out naturally.
Did you actually have a look to check when you were eating your cheese balls?
Also do you how many people have had air pollution written on their death certificates as cause of death since records began?
Go check but I will tell you it’s 1 persons ever.
Also every single thing we do in this country to prevent climate change and lower our pollution levels are like a fart in a hurricane compared to what just the Chinese alone put out.
The Chinese increase their pollution levels every year more than the UKs total yearly output. Thats just the increase. Their actual pollution dwarfs ours.
The irony of this whole scam is that the majority of all these electric cars, solar panels and air source heat pumps that we are spending a fortune on, are made in China.

 

[Bav]

The average motorist drives 23 miles a day

Someone may have commented on this and I've missed, in which case apologies, but the above statement is wrong and should read "the average motorist drives an average of 23 miles a day". And that's the rub, because, for most people, there's a significant deviation around that average distance and when the distance to be travelled is significantly greater than 23 miles, that's when EV drivers either have to endure the inconvenience of charging or they use an ICE vehicle.

 

[Wildcamper]

We do. Geothermal where it is close enough to the surface. Gets a bit hot and messy if you want to go all the way down to actual magma.

Nuclear power uses the same reactions as in the core, just on the surface where it’s a bit easier to build.

Alternatively, ground source heat pumps. You can install one in your own house, but communal approaches are even more efficient- there are examples of these in London already.

The earth's core is not a nuclear reactor. The earth's mantel is far more radioactive than the core.

 

[DaveD]

Don’t know where you read anyone accusing volcanoes as the source of “climate change” from ??
What I said was compare the amount of CO2 that the UK omits as a whole and compare that to the amount of CO2 a volcano puts out naturally.
Did you actually have a look to check when you were eating your cheese balls?
Also do you how many people have had air pollution written on their death certificates as cause of death since records began?
Go check but I will tell you it’s 1 persons ever.
Also every single thing we do in this country to prevent climate change and lower our pollution levels are like a fart in a hurricane compared to what just the Chinese alone put out.
The Chinese increase their pollution levels every year more than the UKs total yearly output. Thats just the increase. Their actual pollution dwarfs ours.
The irony of this whole scam is that the majority of all these electric cars, solar panels and air source heat pumps that we are spending a fortune on, are made in China.

Sorry if I might suggest that you add to your last sentence, "In factories powered by coal."

 

[The Flying Scotsman]

Sorry if I might suggest that you add to your last sentence, "In factories powered by coal."

With diesel generators as back ups.

 

[Lubrown]

Don’t know where you read anyone accusing volcanoes as the source of “climate change” from ??
What I said was compare the amount of CO2 that the UK omits as a whole and compare that to the amount of CO2 a volcano puts out naturally.
Did you actually have a look to check when you were eating your cheese balls?
Also do you how many people have had air pollution written on their death certificates as cause of death since records began?
Go check but I will tell you it’s 1 persons ever.
Also every single thing we do in this country to prevent climate change and lower our pollution levels are like a fart in a hurricane compared to what just the Chinese alone put out.
The Chinese increase their pollution levels every year more than the UKs total yearly output. Thats just the increase. Their actual pollution dwarfs ours.
The irony of this whole scam is that the majority of all these electric cars, solar panels and air source heat pumps that we are spending a fortune on, are made in China.

When I read the bit of you post about comparing UK CO2 emissions to “a volcano” I did a quick google search as it sounded like it was a Mail headline. There were plenty of reputable sources pop up but nicely summarised by this…

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide.

The USGS is proper science.

I haven’t looked at how much CO2 the UK produces because people like you also focus on world efforts… just as you have in your reply, citing China and it’s output.

Sure, global heating is one issue where all countries have an input. Local air quality- that killed a child in London for example… China can’t have much impact on.

As for death certificates you need to remember air pollution is known to increase the risk of say a heart attack but the cause of death will say ‘heart attack’ (or cancer, or stroke etc).
It’s daft to think just because a death certificate doesn’t specify air pollution (or excess sugar, fat, alcohol… or all of the above) those things didn’t have any implication in that death.

Lastly, having a ‘let’s do nothing and bury our heads in the sand’ approach because some others aren’t trying their best isn’t something I can get behind. If we all thought like that we’d still be living in caves and thinking reaching 30 years old wasn’t to be sniffed at.

 

[B.different]

Owning a car is a privilege, and just being skint isn't a justification for using the street as a convenient storage space. Driving and cars isn't some universal God granted right, it's something that should be done with respect and consideration for our neighbours and other people that might like to use a road for its intended purpose, ie, driving.

Tokyo prefecture (in Japan, natch) banned on street parking, and you can't even get the permit required to buy a car in Tokyo (except a Kei car) without proof that you have off road parking. The sooner it comes here, the better...and you can be sure Mayor KHHAAANNNNN! Will be the first and other towns will follow.

Everyone survived without cars, most families managing fine without them as late as the sixties, and we'll manage without them when they're gone. Excuses about living in a flat or being poor are not good enough - people need to learn they can't always have their cake and eat it.

That's like saying eating is a privilege and you poor people have to starve or have bread and water.....enjoy!
And as for Japan, Singapore ect there is a difference as they have invested in there infrastructure and have clean, reliable and punctual public transport and taxis unlike us who seem to just waste money on stupid sh1t like building cycle lanes then remove them because they were thought out by a chimp in front of a desk.
Wouldn't have a clue about the sixties as I wasn't a twinkle in my parents eye until 2 decades later where I was privileged to moden stuff like inside bathrooms and toilets and phones for the privileged, but was not privileged enough to have a drive until poor papa could afford one to put his car on

 

[Wildcamper]

Have any of you EV supporters looked into the immense environmental damage being caused by neodymium (necessary rare earth metal for EVs) mining in china and other places? Also the catastrophic damage to the mangrove shore lines in Indonesia for the mining of nickel (or was it zinc) also highly used in EVs. Whole villages and the way of life of thousands of Indonesia's poor are being swept away. Then the coastal errosion kills all the fish and other aquatic life. EVs and all of Net Zero are the worst of all climate solutions. Also bear in mind that every GB Pound spent on a Chinese battery supports a regime that supports Putin and is the major source of war mongering in SE Asia. I now refuse to purchase anything Chinese - if I can't find an alternative I go without.

 

[drinfinity]

The earth's core is not a nuclear reactor. The earth's mantel is far more radioactive than the core.

Fair point, and the mantle is only 70km away, so much easier to get to.

 

[Bav]

Sorry if I might suggest that you add to your last sentence, "In factories powered by the very dirtiest of coal."

 

[Lubrown]

Have any of you EV supporters looked into the immense environmental damage being caused by neodymium (necessary rare earth metal for EVs) mining in china and other places? Also the catastrophic damage to the mangrove shore lines in Indonesia for the mining of nickel (or was it zinc) also highly used in EVs. Whole villages and the way of life of thousands of Indonesia's poor are being swept away. Then the coastal errosion kills all the fish and other aquatic life. EVs and all of Net Zero are the worst of all climate solutions. Also bear in mind that every GB Pound spent on a Chinese battery supports a regime that supports Putin and is the major source of war mongering in SE Asia. I now refuse to purchase anything Chinese - if I can't find an alternative I go without.

I’m not sure anyone stands out as an EV supporter but we can see they have their purposes as part of the answer.

Likewise I could say have any of the I've supporters considered the damage caused at drilling sites and that oil sales support Putins war (isn’t that why the West stopped buying it from him (directly at least) and prices shot up? India now buys a lot of its oil from Russia.

Neither of them (EV or ICE) are perfect. Both cause damage to people and the planet when extracting and processing the raw ingredients. Both support dodgy countries. One is better at reducing local air pollution while the other emits most of its pollutants at ground level in cities when used on short journeys. Conversely the other is established and scrapping decent vehicles would not be healthy either.

Like anything in life, it’s not so simple and a layered response to all the complex problems is needed.

 

[ginkster]

I now refuse to purchase anything Chinese - if I can't find an alternative I go without.

I don’t disagree with your sentiment and would like to do the same but I find it difficult to believe you don’t buy anything Chinese or go without. The device you used to post on here will almost certainly contain components from China. That’s the problem it’s nigh on impossible to avoid.

 

[drinfinity]

Have any of you EV supporters looked into the immense environmental damage being caused by neodymium (necessary rare earth metal for EVs) mining in china and other places? Also the catastrophic damage to the mangrove shore lines in Indonesia for the mining of nickel (or was it zinc) also highly used in EVs. Whole villages and the way of life of thousands of Indonesia's poor are being swept away. Then the coastal errosion kills all the fish and other aquatic life. EVs and all of Net Zero are the worst of all climate solutions. Also bear in mind that every GB Pound spent on a Chinese battery supports a regime that supports Putin and is the major source of war mongering in SE Asia. I now refuse to purchase anything Chinese - if I can't find an alternative I go without.

Yes, I have. Mining has some very unpleasant human rights records, and we have to consider the scale. 130,000 tonnes of Lithium (2022 data) vs 2.6 billion tonnes of iron ore for steel, and 4.4 billion tonnes of oil.

Good look with avoiding Chinese components - you will need to discard your browsing device or router or internet connection and write in your reply on parchment.

 

[roadtripper]

Driving less and emitting less is the answer - and there are many ways of doing that.

In my case probably the most significant thing is that now working fully remote for most of the year the 2-3 hours of travelling per day is gone.

 

[DaveD]

Have any of you EV supporters looked into the immense environmental damage being caused by neodymium (necessary rare earth metal for EVs) mining in china and other places? Also the catastrophic damage to the mangrove shore lines in Indonesia for the mining of nickel (or was it zinc) also highly used in EVs. Whole villages and the way of life of thousands of Indonesia's poor are being swept away. Then the coastal errosion kills all the fish and other aquatic life. EVs and all of Net Zero are the worst of all climate solutions. Also bear in mind that every GB Pound spent on a Chinese battery supports a regime that supports Putin and is the major source of war mongering in SE Asia. I now refuse to purchase anything Chinese - if I can't find an alternative I go without.

For reasons that I don't understand, China gets a free pass from the rest of the world on certain things, like forgetting to notify the WHO about a pandemic that started there until it had already spread globally, opening 2 new coal power stations every week, Human Rights abuses, to name a few.
But at least we can buy all our energy intensive stuff from China and tell the rest of the world that the UK has reduced its CO2 emissions, it fools the gullible!

 

[Texxaco]

Not until the range is north of 450miles per charge.

 

[Lubrown]

For reasons that I don't understand, China gets a free pass from the rest of the world on certain things, like forgetting to notify the WHO about a pandemic that started there until it had already spread globally, opening 2 new coal power stations every week, Human Rights abuses, to name a few.
But at least we can buy all our energy intensive stuff from China and tell the rest of the world that the UK has reduced its CO2 emissions, it fools the gullible!

I think the way people behave also helps give China a free pass. Over consumption, buying phones or TVs just to get the latest model, buying cheap and buying twice… it all just feeds the beast. It’s like countries are scared of Musk due to the fact most people of voting age are addicted to his echo chamber. Thankfully some judge in Brazil decided to prove you don’t have to bend over and take it but no politicians would have balls like that.

 

[The Flying Scotsman]

When I read the bit of you post about comparing UK CO2 emissions to “a volcano” I did a quick google search as it sounded like it was a Mail headline. There were plenty of reputable sources pop up but nicely summarised by this…

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide.

The USGS is proper science.

I haven’t looked at how much CO2 the UK produces because people like you also focus on world efforts… just as you have in your reply, citing China and it’s output.

Sure, global heating is one issue where all countries have an input. Local air quality- that killed a child in London for example… China can’t have much impact on.

As for death certificates you need to remember air pollution is known to increase the risk of say a heart attack but the cause of death will say ‘heart attack’ (or cancer, or stroke etc).
It’s daft to think just because a death certificate doesn’t specify air pollution (or excess sugar, fat, alcohol… or all of the above) those things didn’t have any implication in that death.

Lastly, having a ‘let’s do nothing and bury our heads in the sand’ approach because some others aren’t trying their best isn’t something I can get behind. If we all thought like that we’d still be living in caves and thinking reaching 30 years old wasn’t to be sniffed at.

Don’t recall mentioning the US once.
All my references were to this country.
You know the one that “people like me” live in.
I have no problem recycling etc to do my bit. Even just splashed out £11.5k on solar panels on my house roof. So not burying my head in the sand. But you seem to have missed my point.
What the UK (not to be confused with the US) does in there total efforts to reduce our pollution is a total waste of time when counties like China are putting out the levels that they are.
As I mentioned elsewhere the only way to stop polluting the planet is to provide free energy for every country.
But that ain’t going to happen.

 

[DaveD]

I think the way people behave also helps give China a free pass. Over consumption, buying phones or TVs just to get the latest model, buying cheap and buying twice… it all just feeds the beast. It’s like countries are scared of Musk due to the fact most people of voting age are addicted to his echo chamber. Thankfully some judge in Brazil decided to prove you don’t have to bend over and take it but no politicians would have balls like that.

Certainly over consumption seems to have gripped the Western World, and of course you are right - having to have the latest gadget only fuels the "need" to buy more stuff, using energy and resources.

 

[Lubrown]

Don’t recall mentioning the US once.
All my references were to this country.
You know the one that “people like me” live in.
I have no problem recycling etc to do my bit. Even just splashed out £11.5k on solar panels on my house roof. So not burying my head in the sand. But you seem to have missed my point.
What the UK (not to be confused with the US) does in there total efforts to reduce our pollution is a total waste of time when counties like China are putting out the levels that they are.
As I mentioned elsewhere the only way to stop polluting the planet is to provide free energy for every country.
But that ain’t going to happen.

I never said you mentioned the US.
But you limiting your point to the UK and a volcano needed context. You don’t like the context because it proves what most people are already admitting- that humans are producing a problem.

You can try and limit discussion to the UK (and open it to China when it suits). You can try and limit it to volcanos. You can narrow it down to the environment and ignore health. You can conflate global greenhouse gasses and local air quality (and you can even try annd convince yourself you aren’t burying your head in the sand) I’m not your mum, do what you want.

I still think seeing as though humans are creating the problem and have awareness of that, and some ideas to combat said problem, we should try. There isn’t an easy answer. There isn’t a single problem or a single solution. But blaming others won’t solve anything.