It is apparently a National Caravan Council (NCC) requirement for NCC approval of a manufacturer or converter.
NCC being "the trade association representing the UK caravan industry."
Hillside Birchover
- Thread starter Grainfoot
- Start date
NCC being "the trade association representing the UK caravan industry."
Rather unscientific, but I topped up the starter battery this morning.
Before I started, I checked the leisure battery voltage, gauge showing 12.3v
Plugged in the Noco Genius 5, voltage in both cab sockets went to 14.2v
Left the charger running until it showed fully charged, cab sockets showing 12.9v, disconnected and left for 30 minutes.
Starter battery shows 12.7v
Leisure battery 12.8v on gauge, and both cab sockets the same.
Now, I think, and I may be wrong, is that the voltage going into the starter battery at bulk charge opens the relay, and allows power to the leisure battery.
Once the starter battery stops taking high levels of charge, and the charger drops to condition, the relay closes again.
And, both my cab sockets seem to run from the leisure battery.
So, having seen that I can get some charge into the leisure battery from the starter being charged, I'm now wondering if the reverse happens, and the van EHU charger will put some current through the relay into the starter?
Before I started, I checked the leisure battery voltage, gauge showing 12.3v
Plugged in the Noco Genius 5, voltage in both cab sockets went to 14.2v
Left the charger running until it showed fully charged, cab sockets showing 12.9v, disconnected and left for 30 minutes.
Starter battery shows 12.7v
Leisure battery 12.8v on gauge, and both cab sockets the same.
Now, I think, and I may be wrong, is that the voltage going into the starter battery at bulk charge opens the relay, and allows power to the leisure battery.
Once the starter battery stops taking high levels of charge, and the charger drops to condition, the relay closes again.
And, both my cab sockets seem to run from the leisure battery.
So, having seen that I can get some charge into the leisure battery from the starter being charged, I'm now wondering if the reverse happens, and the van EHU charger will put some current through the relay into the starter?
The two sockets on the dash are powered off the leisure battery, but I suspect your right with respect to the power transfer between the starter battery and leisure is voltage dependent, not if the engine is running. But I have confirmed the EHU doesn't charge the starter battery.
Pretty much:
When you charge the Starter battery, the higher voltage fools the van into thinking the alternator is running so activates the ”engine run“ signal. This then activates the split charge relay, so your charger then begins to charge both the starter and leisure battery as they are now in parallel. When the charge voltage drops below a certain level, the van thinks the alternator has stopped, so deactivates the “engine run“ signal and the split charge relay opens up and disconnects the leisure battery. The charger then continues to charge the starter battery at the lower voltage.
It definately doesn’t work the other way around and yes, both cab sockets are connected to the leisure battery (VW have wired them this way since the T6.1 came out in 2019).
Good to know, I was charging them separately as I wasn’t sure why the habitation power dropped out when I plugged into the van 240 socket to charge the starter battery.
All makes a lot more sense now.
When I got the handover on the van, I was told that if I plugged a portable solar panel into the lower socket it would trickle charge the starter battery, but obviously wasn't the case.
I discussed keeping the starter battery topped up with Hillside staff on their stand at last month’s NEC show and they appeared unaware that recent T6.1s have both 12v cab sockets connected to the leisure battery. As you say, they have been incorrectly advising owners during handovers. They‘re probably not alone in this and it makes you wonder whether VW bother updating their approved converters.
On checking the Hillside manual, I notice there‘s only cursory reference to keeping the starter battery charged up when the van is unused for extended periods but there’s no specific information provided for doing this. I did ask they update their documentation when we spoke so hopefully they’ll do this.
I had a discussion with Hillside this summer about the 12v cab sockets and that they supplied from the leisure battery. So it's disappointing they claimed to be unaware?
@Camper_Chris I guess they haven’t got round to telling all the members of their team who interact with customers.
Haven’t implemented it yet, but I’m going to add a relay in with the coil powered by an ignition live feed and send the “engine run” signal through that. Currently when I charge my starter battery, my DC-DC converter powers up every time the “engine run signal” falsely activates due to the increased charge voltage. That doesn’t suit me as I’m charging the starter at 7A and then taking up to 40A out of it to charge the lithium leisure battery which I don’t actually want charged as it’s better not to be fully charged when not in use. I’m bodging it at the moment by pulling the “engine run” fuse to the DC-DC converter to stop it activating.
Been charging my Starter battery today and just by luck I was in the van when I noticed that the DC-DC converter turned on even though i’d disconnected the “engine run” signal to it by pulling the fuse (disconnected).
Back to the REDARC manual and it states that the trigger works as follows:
STANDARD: disconnected or grounded then ON above 12.9V and OFF below 12.7V
LOW VOLTAGE: Connected to ‘ignition’ or “D+’ (“engine run”) then on above 12.0V and OFF below 11.9V.
That implies to me that it is purely switching on the voltage it senses from the starter battery.
In normal operation, no problem.
But connect up a charger then as soon as it goes above 12.9V or 12.0V (depending upon whether the “engine run” signal is floating/grounded or high) its turning on my DC-DC and taking current from the starter to charge the leisure battery at a higher rate than the charge going into the starter. The starter battery is therefore struggling to get a charge and the leisure battery is being charged by draining the starter battery!!
The DC-DC is turning on less with the “engine run” signal being disconnected (why I previously hadn’t noticed and my starter battery was in a better state of charge) but it’s still turning on and it’s not good when my leisure battery can easily take the 40A the DC-DC is trying to supply (luckily currently the leisure battery is pretty charged so hopefully I haven’t knackered the starter battery, by trying to charge it like this).
My relay idea is not going to solve it.
Currently I’ve connected up my 15A EHU leisure battery charger up so it supplies charge current from another source to reduce the current being drawn through from the starter battery / starter charger. Will see if my starter battery starts to charge properly.
Really I think it’s looking like, in order to solve this, I need to have the ability to either easily disconnect the DC-DC input from the starter battery when charging the starter battery, probably by adding an isolator to the DC-DC input or isolating the leisure battery entirely. I could pull the main leisure battery fuse, but it’s not really convenient to do that regularly.
Also isolating at a point where lower potential currents flow seems preferable to me.
Back to the REDARC manual and it states that the trigger works as follows:
STANDARD: disconnected or grounded then ON above 12.9V and OFF below 12.7V
LOW VOLTAGE: Connected to ‘ignition’ or “D+’ (“engine run”) then on above 12.0V and OFF below 11.9V.
That implies to me that it is purely switching on the voltage it senses from the starter battery.
In normal operation, no problem.
But connect up a charger then as soon as it goes above 12.9V or 12.0V (depending upon whether the “engine run” signal is floating/grounded or high) its turning on my DC-DC and taking current from the starter to charge the leisure battery at a higher rate than the charge going into the starter. The starter battery is therefore struggling to get a charge and the leisure battery is being charged by draining the starter battery!!
The DC-DC is turning on less with the “engine run” signal being disconnected (why I previously hadn’t noticed and my starter battery was in a better state of charge) but it’s still turning on and it’s not good when my leisure battery can easily take the 40A the DC-DC is trying to supply (luckily currently the leisure battery is pretty charged so hopefully I haven’t knackered the starter battery, by trying to charge it like this).
My relay idea is not going to solve it.
Currently I’ve connected up my 15A EHU leisure battery charger up so it supplies charge current from another source to reduce the current being drawn through from the starter battery / starter charger. Will see if my starter battery starts to charge properly.
Really I think it’s looking like, in order to solve this, I need to have the ability to either easily disconnect the DC-DC input from the starter battery when charging the starter battery, probably by adding an isolator to the DC-DC input or isolating the leisure battery entirely. I could pull the main leisure battery fuse, but it’s not really convenient to do that regularly.
Also isolating at a point where lower potential currents flow seems preferable to me.
I didn’t have Hillside fit solar into my van but I seem to remember seeing a Birchover at the factory with a solar controller sited high up on the front panel of the wardrobe (at the back of the control panel). It may be worth checking on the Hillside Owners Group Facebook page if you’re subscribed.
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@Captain Quick Thats where I thought they might put it as they could connect to the existing feed in the wardrobe without running any new wire to the front when fitting just a 100W panel. I asked because in another thread @Chris1983 said he was quoted £700+ from Hillside to fit such. That’s pretty extortionate considering the materials and work required IMHO.
@Captain Quick can I ask two questions…
1- is there an option NOT to have to thread wire to leisure battery if mppt controller is installed as you describe here? (That’s the bit causing me most theoretical conundrums)
2-do your sca rails sit fully flush in sca grooves? I have ordered some from banwy vans and when I have laid them into groove front of both rails sits flush but rear of both rails sit about 3mm proud of top. Uncertain if this is correct ir if I am expected to cut rails etc etc?!
@Chris1983 How many watts of solar are you going to be installing?
The existing power to the rear cupboard is fused at 40A.
I would say that if you are limiting it to under 200W (17A thereabouts) then putting the solar controller in the rear cupboard (like Hillside do) will be a solution to save you running additional wiring to the front which is causing you concern.
The existing power to the rear cupboard is fused at 40A.
I would say that if you are limiting it to under 200W (17A thereabouts) then putting the solar controller in the rear cupboard (like Hillside do) will be a solution to save you running additional wiring to the front which is causing you concern.
this sounds like a possible solution.
If I can confirm the sca rail system I have bought can work, the max looking at is 200w.
Where would I be looking to integrate the wires from the charge controller? I view electrics as ‘dark arts’ mostly?! I know this panel (front of wardrobe) houses the hab lights/ diesel heater control, hot water switch etc.
If I can confirm the sca rail system I have bought can work, the max looking at is 200w.
Where would I be looking to integrate the wires from the charge controller? I view electrics as ‘dark arts’ mostly?! I know this panel (front of wardrobe) houses the hab lights/ diesel heater control, hot water switch etc.
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