Yeah @Caulkhead. The panniers were an end of season bargain that I couldn't leave on the shelf. As it's built as an adventure / gravel / summer tourer / winter hack / commuter that will hopefully last.....well, longer than me, a Brooks leather titanium railed saddle was really the only way to go. Takes a little breaking in, but well worth it after a few months. Of course that ment matching Brooks bar tape. You know how it is. Hoping the bike and van will make good companions for some forth coming adventures.