Split charger? Is it a stop/start van?
Split charger? Is it a stop/start van?
Yeah, 2019 T6 Highline. Maybe I have the terminology wrong? But yes, it is a 2019 with stop/start. My main point about mentioning it was that I know charging whilst driving works fine. When I had my solar issues (and leisure battery had ran down), then even a relatively short drive, did a fab job of topping it back up.
As I understand it, split charger usually means a VSR. And a Start/Stop van has a smart alternator. VSRs shouldn't be used with a smart alternator. Although it would charge the leisure battery, but never to full capacity.
Also I was wondering if a VSR+Smart Alternator would cause some wild voltage swings on the Leisure battery (and fridge), and how this may affect the fridge?
Just speculating really. Someone with more experience will chip in..............
Also I was wondering if a VSR+Smart Alternator would cause some wild voltage swings on the Leisure battery (and fridge), and how this may affect the fridge?
Just speculating really. Someone with more experience will chip in..............
I remember covering this with the converter when I had it done, telling him I had read something about smart alternators requiring specific solutions re leisure battery charging. He said he was 100% aware of the issue. In the invoice, this is what he has listed as the product he fitted:
CTEK Smart Split Charger for T6 (CTEK T6 Smart Alternator Euro 6 Split Charger 12V D250SA)
So, from what I can tell, what he has fitted is compatible with the smart alternator (which I assume means that would't be the problem?).
Thanks,
Roy
Have you definately made sure you have no loose connections anywhere in leisure battery circuit.
Thanks for the response.
I can have a double check. But it went back to the converter (re the solar issue) a few weeks ago. They tell me they have re checked all wiring and connections and its ok (and is why they are now going to change the MPPT and solar panel).
I think they would have checked wires and connection between battery / MPPT / solar. I suspect they would not have checked wiring from battery to other things (like fridge / USB chargers / lights and so forth) - is that what you meant? I think it would be hard for me to check some of that - as a lot of it will be wires run behind units and fixed panels etc.
Regards,
Roy
P
Phil_G
Guest
Was the hook-up connected at the time? If not, then that switch has nothing to do with the magical 'fix', it simply sits inline with the incoming live & neutral from your hookup before feeding the circuit breakers for your mains sockets etc - either theres a serious miswiring problem or more likely by touching the switch maybe you disturbed a poor earth connection maybe behind the box... there should be no 12v wires going into that box, only the 240 mains
Your fridge will turn off when the supply voltage to it goes below a certain voltage, each brand is slightly different.
When you say the battery was 100% after electric hook up, did you just assume that or have you a battery monitor.
If you have a monitor and know it was 100percent but dropped down too low even after driving for 2 hours but then came back up to 100% again this sounds like a bad connection in the battery circuit. Possibly bad ground.
When it came back to 100% did you have a load ie fridge turned on or was there no load when you checked as a failing battery can die under load.
When you say the battery was 100% after electric hook up, did you just assume that or have you a battery monitor.
If you have a monitor and know it was 100percent but dropped down too low even after driving for 2 hours but then came back up to 100% again this sounds like a bad connection in the battery circuit. Possibly bad ground.
When it came back to 100% did you have a load ie fridge turned on or was there no load when you checked as a failing battery can die under load.
Thanks for your response @AussieMick.
OK, when on site, I check the battery charge level two ways.
1. There is an LED panel on the wall, with I think 5 LEDs. When I left this was on 5 (full charge)
2. I have a Victron MPPT controller which has a bluetooth connection, I can see "realtime" what the charge is, or download 30 days of data. I never checked that before I left, but I can see the values from the history (which i have included below)
When I first arrived home (and had the issue), i didnt think to check the bluetooth values at that time - I know the LED was at 1 red light and beeping - but I cannot say what the bluetooth reading was at that time (but I think I know now, see spreadheet below). However, when I left it for 20 mins (didnt charge it or do anything else, just left it) and it seemed to be working again as if by magic (all lights on LED charge indicator and fridge ok) I did check bluetooth then, and it showed something like 12.9% (which I am thinking is 100%).
You question prompted me to download the 30 days of data (which covers the period of the issue) and I have included it below, at it shows some interesting things.
Row 13 (30/10/2020) is the day we drove down. I didnt actually notice any issues that day, but you can see from the info above that the battery dropped to 3.67 volts! I can only assume the issue occurred during our drive on the way down, but we plugged into the electric hookup before we noticed there was an issue. This is news to me, I have only spotted it due to downloading the data above. But it does show, it has happened more than once!
Row 12 (31/10/2020) the van stayed at the site all day, connected to the electric hookup), we can see high battery values for all that day.
Row 11 (01/11/2020) is the day we left the site and travelled home. I had the hookup attached until just before we left, and based on the figures in the spreadsheet, I am 99% confident the battery would have been 100% charged at the point we left site. After leaving site, we drove for 30 mins and stopped for 1 hour, just before we carried on our journey I opened the fridge, and no issues visible at that time (never checked any voltages). We then drove a further 1 hour 30 mins (to get home), and noticed the issue I have shared in the videos, as soon as we got back. We can see from the speadsheet above, that the voltage dropped to 5.87 that day - which I assume would have been the reading at the point we experienced the issue.
The interesting thing I guess, is that it dropped to 5.87 as we can see from the spreadsheet. But, without any charging at all, it all of a sudden started working again "as if by magic" and the bluetooth reading was then 12.9. So it went from 5.87 to 12.9 seemingly on its own, without any charging being done - and it did so within a 20 mins period. The only things we did within that 20 mins period was open and close doors (as unpacking the van) and switch on and off a coupe of times the trip switch on the Sargent unit (see pic below) - but others have said, the Sargent unit in itself would have no impact as it is only relevant when you are on electric hookup (which were were not at that point).
So, some more data there, does that get us closer to a diagnosis? A few people have said a bad connection (possible earth)? Does that seem likely based on the extra info? If so, how an earth (no pun intended) would I go about testing that (as most the time, the issue is not present).
Many Thanks,
Roy
Was the hook-up connected at the time? If not, then that switch has nothing to do with the magical 'fix', it simply sits inline with the incoming live & neutral from your hookup before feeding the circuit breakers for your mains sockets etc - either theres a serious miswiring problem or more likely by touching the switch maybe you disturbed a poor earth connection maybe behind the box... there should be no 12v wires going into that box, only the 240 mains
Thanks for your response @Phil_G.
No, when we had the issue we were not on hookup. I noticed the issue as soon as I got back home (after the long drive, and 2 days of electric hookup) - so the Sargent unit (as you say) in itself would not have made any difference (apart from the physical pushing as you say, potentially moving some wires about behind it)
I have added some extra info in a post 2 mins ago which may help shed some more light on the root cause of the issue.
Thanks for taking the time to look and respond.
Roy
Hi all,
I have some fresh information that may help you smart people diagnose the issue.
If we just take the last few days of data from the victron bluetooth, and look at the max and min voltage for each day:
The days with a green highlight are days we drove the van. The days with the blue, are days we never drove the van, and never went in the van at all - on those days, all electrics and fridge were off. Where I have highlighted in pink, there are low voltages which seem WAY TOO LOW to me.
So, we can see the same weird behaviour I highlighted a couple of posts above continues. On Sunday, when I got into the van first thing in the morning , both the diesel hear and fridge LED panels were flashing in an error state (despite nothing being left switched on in the van overnight). I have that on video. The victron showed about 3 volts when I fist checked, and then, for no reason, it jumped to 14v. However, each time I turned on the electric at the wall (just switched it on, nothing plugged in or running to draw current) it would immediately drop to 5v or 6v. Even more bizarre, when I switched off the electrics at the wall, it jumped back to 14v - but then with nothing else happening (i was just sat there), the volts started jumping from 14v down to 6v or so, and then up and down - just as I was watching it, I was not turning anything on or off. Below is a link to a short video which shows this.
drive.google.com
You can also see from the table above, that on some days, even though we have not been in the van all day, that the battery charge is hugely fluctuating during the day. E.g. take the 4th row down (20/11/2020), we never went anywhere near the van, but it seems to have swung from 14.47 to 2.7v for absolutely no reason (nothing turned on, van just on drive)
Does that info give anyone any ideas as to what the issue might be? When I started the thread initally, the battery was working fine, and it was just the solar charge not working. But now, we have this other issue that only started a coupe of weeks ago. The van is back with the converter to fix the original solar problem (he is swapping solar panel and MPPT), but I want him to fix this at the same time! So, any ideas would be most welcome.
Thanks all,
Roy
I have some fresh information that may help you smart people diagnose the issue.
If we just take the last few days of data from the victron bluetooth, and look at the max and min voltage for each day:
The days with a green highlight are days we drove the van. The days with the blue, are days we never drove the van, and never went in the van at all - on those days, all electrics and fridge were off. Where I have highlighted in pink, there are low voltages which seem WAY TOO LOW to me.
So, we can see the same weird behaviour I highlighted a couple of posts above continues. On Sunday, when I got into the van first thing in the morning , both the diesel hear and fridge LED panels were flashing in an error state (despite nothing being left switched on in the van overnight). I have that on video. The victron showed about 3 volts when I fist checked, and then, for no reason, it jumped to 14v. However, each time I turned on the electric at the wall (just switched it on, nothing plugged in or running to draw current) it would immediately drop to 5v or 6v. Even more bizarre, when I switched off the electrics at the wall, it jumped back to 14v - but then with nothing else happening (i was just sat there), the volts started jumping from 14v down to 6v or so, and then up and down - just as I was watching it, I was not turning anything on or off. Below is a link to a short video which shows this.
batteryvoltsjumping.mp4
drive.google.com
You can also see from the table above, that on some days, even though we have not been in the van all day, that the battery charge is hugely fluctuating during the day. E.g. take the 4th row down (20/11/2020), we never went anywhere near the van, but it seems to have swung from 14.47 to 2.7v for absolutely no reason (nothing turned on, van just on drive)
Does that info give anyone any ideas as to what the issue might be? When I started the thread initally, the battery was working fine, and it was just the solar charge not working. But now, we have this other issue that only started a coupe of weeks ago. The van is back with the converter to fix the original solar problem (he is swapping solar panel and MPPT), but I want him to fix this at the same time! So, any ideas would be most welcome.
Thanks all,
Roy
P
Phil_G
Guest
You need to eliminate all the electronics and wiring by measuring the actual battery voltage, ie at the battery terminals.
My guess is that the battery itself is fine but you have either a poor earth connection from the battery, or a dodgy fuse or
fuse holder, loose crimp, etc in the positive feed.
By considering fridges, bluetooth screens, mppt controllers, heaters, etc you're just complicating the faulting process.
All those things are telling you the same thing, that there is a huge intermittent volt drop somewhere when the battery is under load.
Do you have a voltmeter? Clip the meter negative directly to the battery negative terminal. Now connect the meter pos terminal to the
negative as it enters the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault . The meter should read zero or very near zero. If it remains zero on the meter
whilst your fault is present then its not a faulty earth connection.
To prove if the drop is in the positive feed, clip the meter positive directly to the battery positive terminal. Now connect the meter negative terminal to the
positive where it feeds the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault. The meter should read zero or very near zero. Whilst whilst your fault is present, one of these two tests will show a voltage drop of several volts. Thats what you need to trace.
Try this if you can & report back
My guess is that the battery itself is fine but you have either a poor earth connection from the battery, or a dodgy fuse or
fuse holder, loose crimp, etc in the positive feed.
By considering fridges, bluetooth screens, mppt controllers, heaters, etc you're just complicating the faulting process.
All those things are telling you the same thing, that there is a huge intermittent volt drop somewhere when the battery is under load.
Do you have a voltmeter? Clip the meter negative directly to the battery negative terminal. Now connect the meter pos terminal to the
negative as it enters the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault . The meter should read zero or very near zero. If it remains zero on the meter
whilst your fault is present then its not a faulty earth connection.
To prove if the drop is in the positive feed, clip the meter positive directly to the battery positive terminal. Now connect the meter negative terminal to the
positive where it feeds the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault. The meter should read zero or very near zero. Whilst whilst your fault is present, one of these two tests will show a voltage drop of several volts. Thats what you need to trace.
Try this if you can & report back
You need to eliminate all the electronics and wiring by measuring the actual battery voltage, ie at the battery terminals.
My guess is that the battery itself is fine but you have either a poor earth connection from the battery, or a dodgy fuse or
fuse holder, loose crimp, etc in the positive feed.
By considering fridges, bluetooth screens, mppt controllers, heaters, etc you're just complicating the faulting process.
All those things are telling you the same thing, that there is a huge intermittent volt drop somewhere when the battery is under load.
Do you have a voltmeter? Clip the meter negative directly to the battery negative terminal. Now connect the meter pos terminal to the
negative as it enters the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault . The meter should read zero or very near zero. If it remains zero on the meter
whilst your fault is present then its not a faulty earth connection.
To prove if the drop is in the positive feed, clip the meter positive directly to the battery positive terminal. Now connect the meter negative terminal to the
positive where it feeds the MPPT, fridge or heater. Try to induce the fault. The meter should read zero or very near zero. Whilst whilst your fault is present, one of these two tests will show a voltage drop of several volts. Thats what you need to trace.
Try this if you can & report back
Thanks @Phil_G, I will try that and report back. A quick "stupid question" first. Where you say "as it enters the MPPT" (for positive and negative cables), I assume you mean where the cable from the battery enters the MPPT (as opposed to the cable from the solar)? I.e. in the picture below I have 2 positive and 2 negative cables going to the MPPT, I just want to make sure measuring the voltage at the correct one.
Apologies if its a daft question and obvious to everyone else! lol.
P
Phil_G
Guest
The pos & neg terminals on the MPPT from the battery. Make sure the meter is on the actual terminals at either end, ie poke the meter probe into the + terminal on the mppt and the actual lead battery lug. You'll need to induce the fault to see if the voltage drop is in these connections - maybe get someone to help to do that as you need 3 hands, two of them 8 feet apart You'll probably have to extend one of the meter leads too (either).
Or, induce the fault while the meter probes are poked into the 'Batt' connectors on the MPPT.
This is easier but wont tell you which feed is bad (ie the pos or the neg)
Cheers
Phil
You'll probably have to extend one of the meter leads too (either).Or, induce the fault while the meter probes are poked into the 'Batt' connectors on the MPPT.
This is easier but wont tell you which feed is bad (ie the pos or the neg)
Cheers
Phil
Last edited by a moderator:
The pos & neg terminals on the MPPT from the battery. Make sure the meter is on the actual terminals at either end, ie poke the meter probe into the + terminal on the mppt and the actual lead battery lug. You'll need to induce the fault to see if the voltage drop is in these connections - maybe get someone to help to do that as you need 3 hands, two of them 8 feet apart
View attachment 92915
Or, induce the fault while the meter probes are poked into the 'Batt' connectors on the MPPT.
This is easier but wont tell you which feed is bad (ie the pos or the neg)
Cheers
Phil
Morning Phil,
Your request to perform those tests made me look at things, and I found straight away what the issue is, no need for the voltmeter.
But, before I say what it was, let me just briefly recap recent events so I dont look a complete idiot. So, we originally had the solar not charging the battery issue (the main point of this thread). Based on the advice in the thread, the camper went back to the converter (its still under warranty, only had it converted in March) for them to check all the connections from panel to MPPT and MPPT to battery to ensure they were spot on - and to eliminate them from the investigation. The converter had the van from us in early October, did the checks and reported back those connections were rock solid, and concluded the not charging issue was therefore MPPT or solar panel related - they are swapping both MPPT and solar panel early December. Between March and October (before the converter had the van to check the connections), we had the solar not charging issue, but never had the voltage drop issue - that is a NEW issue, which has only occurred after we had the van back from the converter in October (when they checked the connections). So, in my mind, all connections to the battery itself were 100%, as the converter had recently checked them all.
Well, you can imagine my surprise when I went out this morning to try the checks you suggested. When I removed the panel to access the battery, this is what I was greeted with.
When I touched the negative terminal connector, the entire connection on the battery terminal is loose, just wobbles. Unlike connectors on car batteries I have seen over the years, where the connection bolts onto the battery terminal, in this one, it is spring loaded and snaps on (no bolts) as you push the cover down. So, with that blue cover up, it is basically disconnected, just resting on the battery post. When you push down the blue cover, you feel it tighten, and it should "snap" shut when it gets to the bottom. The issue is, with all those wires jammed under it, it cannot get down to the bottom, and hence does not snap properly shut - its sort of "half closed" and does not feel right (even to a layman like me). I am astounded the converter, having fitted that, and recently checked it has thought its all ok. I am a computer programmer, and I am not very good with these kinds of things (or mechanics), they are not my bag. But even to me, as you push that cover down, its blindingly obvious that its not snapping shut properly. As I say, I dont understand how someone that does it for a living could think it was ok? I assume, after driving over a bump, its popped off (as it does not snap shut properly), and hence the issues.
My explanation is probably rubbish, so I have a little video below of the connector and how it works (or doesnt work).
looseConnectionNegativeBattery.mp4
drive.google.com
For now, I have snapped it back on (as best as it will go) and I cannot replicate the issues with voltage swing. I have put the fridge on and will monitor throughout the day.
I am pretty sure that this is the issue with the voltage drop, but dont think its the issue with the solar not working. As I have earlier pictures of the battery I took when we had the solar issue, and I can see the clamp had not "popped off" at that point.
Obviously, I need the converter to sort out that clamp / connection on the negative post when they change the panel and MPPT. Is there anything else I should be doing, or asking them to do?
Thanks,
Roy
Negative Battery Terminal Clamp - 3 Stud Connection
Battery terminal clamp for negative post with 3 stud connection points (2x M6, 1x M8) and nyloc nuts. Ideal for multiple auxiliary connections.
www.12voltplanet.co.uk
More appalling workmanship by a converter! What on earth are they thinking of when they make such a lash up of a simple job like that. So much for checking connections.
Begs the question" what else has been bodged?"
Temporary fix is to cut away the plastic so that it can then press down fully.
Begs the question" what else has been bodged?"
Temporary fix is to cut away the plastic so that it can then press down fully.
P
Phil_G
Guest
If you read the solar controller instructions, you will see that the battery should be connected before the solar. Its a microprocessor-controlled box, it needs a stable power supply so it can boot up properly before it even thinks about regulating solar input. With the battery terminal disconnected, arcing or intermittent, it will be in and out of brownout and anything could happen - it could even blow the controller.
You're a programmer, its like jiggling the mains plug in & out as your PC is booting up
So it very possibly does account for your solar problem too.
The main outcome of this is that your converter needs a serious kick up the arse, this isnt good enough on a 'professional conversion', its appalling not only that they did this, but also that they didnt check it when you returned the van. Its incompetence.
Cheers
Phil
You're a programmer, its like jiggling the mains plug in & out as your PC is booting up
So it very possibly does account for your solar problem too.
The main outcome of this is that your converter needs a serious kick up the arse, this isnt good enough on a 'professional conversion', its appalling not only that they did this, but also that they didnt check it when you returned the van. Its incompetence.
Cheers
Phil
Last edited by a moderator:
If you read the solar controller instructions, you will see that the battery should be connected before the solar. Its a microprocessor-controlled box, it needs a stable power supply so it can boot up properly before it even thinks about regulating solar input. With the battery terminal disconnected, arcing or intermittent, it will be in and out of brownout and anything could happen - it could even blow the controller.
You're a programmer, its like jiggling the mains plug in & out as your PC is booting up
So it very possibly does account for your solar problem too.
The main outcome of this is that your converter needs a serious kick up the arse, this isnt good enough on a 'professional conversion', its appalling not only that they did this, but also that they didnt check it when you returned the van. Its incompetence.
Cheers
Phil
Thanks Phil,
Completely agree, it is NOT acceptable from the converter - and as per the previous comment, it makes me concerned about the quality of all the work that I cant see (behind panels and so far).
One thing you said in previous comment intrigued me Phil... Which is this bit...
"If you read the solar controller instructions, you will see that the battery should be connected before the solar. Its a microprocessor-controlled box, it needs a stable power supply so it can boot up properly before it even thinks about regulating solar input"
So, as the battery has effectively been "disconnected and reconnected", does that mean I would need to disconnect the solar panel again and re-attach it, so it can re-boot itself with a stable power source? Or is that no use at this point? Just trying to workout what I can do to see if this is indeed also the solar issue?
Also, would you recommend that the converter changes the connector on the terminal post to a "better one" (as opposed to trimming the cover of existing one so it snaps shut)? I think someone above posted a link to a "bolt on" connector?
Thanks,
Roy
The moral here is always check connections yourself even if someone tells you they have already checked them.
I did fault finding for a living all my working life and saw this time and time again.
I realize that you shouldn't have to after taking it to a professional repairer but sometimes you have to.
That terminal clamp needs replacing to one like in the post from Loz
I did fault finding for a living all my working life and saw this time and time again.
I realize that you shouldn't have to after taking it to a professional repairer but sometimes you have to.
That terminal clamp needs replacing to one like in the post from Loz
Similar threads
