Is my solar setup faulty?

[monsteruk]

I think @t0mb0 might be right with the idea of heat or movement disturbing a bad joint or a fracture. Water won't cause an electrical problem between the panel & controller, its not that good a conductor at these low voltages, but it will cause corrosion/oxidisation of any joints it gets into, and would play havoc if it got into the controller itself. But electrically, other than the corrosion/oxidisation of joints, it wont directly affect your solar, it certainly wont 'short' the panel or battery.
It is a concern that they've drilled the panel - quite apart from possible damage to the internal interconnects, it breaks the layer seals and I would imagine would void the manufacturers warranty. You'd have made a better job fitting it yourself

As an aside, nothing to do with your problem, it is possible for a clean panel to produce less than a dusty one, especially at acute angles. The dirt can scatter the light so it impacts the cells at a more efficient angle, and also tends to reduce reflection - some panels have an intentionally coarse finish for this reason. A highly-polished panel surface could reflect almost all the energy from a low sun.

Thanks for that @Phil_G.

I will have a try tomorrow to reproduce it again, but with a bit of "movement" and also "a bit of heat". If I can reproduce it again, I will record the evidence and get it straight back to the converter. I know I have already recorded the issue once today, but if I can reproduce it again (or better, reproduce it consistently), it just makes for an easier conversation with the converter.

To be fair to the converter, we are really happy with all of the conversion apart from this bit. Based on all the comments in this thread (from types of terminal connectors, drilling the panel, to the seals perishing on the cable entry points) he has not done the best job of the panel / electrics. I guess this is the risk when you get any small sized converter - they will be absolute mustard at some parts of the the conversion, and likely less good at other aspects - clearly electrics is a "less good" area for this converter, but the work inside the van is very good.

If / when i reproduce it, I will get the converter to do what I asked him to do last time, which is replace the panel and MPPT. Based on research, I decided to go for these as an upgrade:

12V solar panels charging kits for caravans, motorhomes, boats, yachts, marine

12V solar panel solar charging kits for motorhome caravan boat campervan yacht marine off-grid

www.photonicuniverse.com

and

Victron SmartSolar MPPT 100/20 (up to 48V) Retail - TR

The SmartSolar range from Victron Energy is the latest range with in-built Bluetooth connectivity. This controller is for 48V battery banks. Suitable for 290W (12V); 580W (24V) or 1160W (48V). (6mm2 max terminal size)

midsummerenergy.co.uk

When he fits the new panel, I will need to explicitly tell him NOT to drill through the panel for the cables routed inside the van! With that in mind, if he does not drill through the panel I assume there would be some junction box or something mounted on the roof where the cables do go through the roof? I would need to get him to use one of those I guess, whatever they are!

But job number 1, reproduce todays issue again...

Thanks.

 

[Phil_G]

He will be reluctant to change the panel as its not a trivial job... difficult to achieve a "brand new" appearance the second time.
Cheers
Phil
PS you're certain the controller didnt coincidentally switch from bulk to float just as you were washing the panel?
You cant really test solar performance with a full battery, it needs to be partially discharged or under heavy load.

 

[oldiebut goodie]

We don't think that he has had a full battery yet!

 

[monsteruk]

Hey @Phil_G,

To be fair the converter, he had already agreed to switch the panel if issues continued (but I need to prove they are continuing I guess). We had discussed that any new panel would need to be larger in dimensions than the original, as the original is likely not to come off 100% cleanly. But hopefully if the new one is larger dimension it should cover up any residue from the old panel and look ok?

Re the switch from bulk to float. Thats a good point to raise Phil, and to be honest on this stuff I am rarely sure on anything. On the odd occasion I have seen it in float since March, it has tended to get there via spending some time in Absorption mode. And then when it goes into float mode, I am pretty sure it actually says the current mode under the "State" part of the display, i.e. it shows State as "Float" if in float mode. See below, it actually had a status of "Off" when it went to 0W. I also find it interesting that the battery voltage at that point was 12.46 (less than 80%?), which does not imply it is fully charged, so you would expect it to charge at that point? Finally, the voltage on that panel at that point seems really low too at 13.11? But maybe that's what it would do in float?



But just before it went to 0W, it showed status of bulk, 38W from panel and a battery voltage of 13.09v. It also showed a good panel voltage at that time (25.99v). I assume those figures are reasonable for winter sun on a 150W panel?



Someone said yesterday that even if the battery is showing 13v or over, if it is still accepting good charge (3 amps going in above), it is unlikely to be near 100% charged so will remain in bulk. So, my understanding is that the above screen shot does not show fully charged / just about to switch to float, but I dont really know.

So @Phil_G, my suspicion is it had NOT gone in to float mode when it went to zero, but nothing is surprising me on this stuff! lol

Thanks.

 

[monsteruk]

We don't think that he has had a full battery yet!

Hey @oldiebut goodie,

I thought it would have been 100% full when I collected the camper on Tuesday. The converter had charged the battery before fitting (he said he had), and I then drove it for 40 mins (25 miles) back home after collection, which would have kept it topped up. So, I suspect Tuesday tea time it could have been 100%. Since then, due to various tests of lights etc. it has not been 100% as far as I can tell. When I got home Tuesday PM and turned off the van i took a reading, but the battery had not "rested", I had literally just turned off the engine (so I assume that means we cannot trust the voltage readout of the battery).



It only shows 12.79v, so to be fair maybe it has NOT been fully charged since I have had it back (unless it is displaying lower as had not "rested" before taking the reading).

Roy

 

[t0mb0]

Hey @oldiebut goodie,

I thought it would have been 100% full when I collected the camper on Tuesday. The converter had charged the battery before fitting (he said he had), and I then drove it for 40 mins (25 miles) back home after collection, which would have kept it topped up. So, I suspect Tuesday tea time it could have been 100%. Since then, due to various tests of lights etc. it has not been 100% as far as I can tell. When I got home Tuesday PM and turned off the van i took a reading, but the battery had not "rested", I had literally just turned off the engine (so I assume that means we cannot trust the voltage readout of the battery).

View attachment 97810

It only shows 12.79v, so to be fair maybe it has NOT been fully charged since I have had it back (unless it is displaying lower as had not "rested" before taking the reading).

Roy

Do you have a DC-DC charger fitted? If so, it should charge to 100% given a long enough drive.

 

[oldiebut goodie]

My leisures show high 13 volts after switch off with no solar - I checked mine as I parked up yesterday after a 35 mile trip.

 

[monsteruk]

Do you have a DC-DC charger fitted? If so, it should charge to 100% given a long enough drive.

I have one of these: https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/h...t-alternator-dc-dc-split-charging-system.html

On the previous battery, the ctek did a great job of topping up the leisure battery, even on a relatively short drive. I have only done one drive since this new AGM battery has been fitted.

 

[Grim Reaper]

That CTEK DC-DC charger has a built in MPPT solar charger, why are you using the victron MPPT charger? The CTEK could have done exactly the same.

 

[AussieMick]

It's a pity you don't have a battery monitor fitted as you could charge your battery to 100% by a mains charger. Set the monitor to 100% then you could see exactly how much wattage and current is going in as you are charging by solar panel and how much wattage and current draw going out when fridge lights etc are on. At any stage you could see what your battery state of charge (soc) was.
I have a victron bmv712 and it is invaluable for this type of monitoring.
Otherwise we are all just guessing what's happening.

 

[monsteruk]

That CTEK DC-DC charger has a built in MPPT solar charger, why are you using the victron MPPT charger? The CTEK could have done exactly the same.

Thats a good question. But, it is worth remembering I never selected any individual components personally. When we decided to do a conversion we did toy (for a brief moment) about doing it all ourselves. I have never converted a van to a campervan, and when I started researching I could see very quickly that there were many, many options for a whole bunch of things I didnt really understand. So rather than take a risk of me spending a fortune and buying all the wrong stuff, I went down the road of finding a local converter with really good Google reviews (who has done dozens of conversions before). So, the conversations with the converter were about high-level requirements, i.e. I wanted a high capacity battery with a min of 150W panel to keep it topped up if off grid for a couple of days. The converter then selected and installed the various things needed to meet those requirements (the specifics of individual components were never discussed). With what I am finding out now, I wish I had understood it all a little better at the time, but that's with hindsight of course. When I ordered it, my view was he has converted dozens of vans with great reviews, and it better placed than I to pick specific components and decide what is (or is not) needed. Nothing ever easy is it!?!?

So, the MPPT on the CTEK, does that also have a Bluetooth app, which I could use to see the current watts, volts and so forth, like the Victron? As I must admit, without that I would never had a chance of seeing / proving an issue at all.

Thanks

 

[monsteruk]

It's a pity you don't have a battery monitor fitted as you could charge your battery to 100% by a mains charger. Set the monitor to 100% then you could see exactly how much wattage and current is going in as you are charging by solar panel and how much wattage and current draw going out when fridge lights etc are on. At any stage you could see what your battery state of charge (soc) was.
I have a victron bmv712 and it is invaluable for this type of monitoring.
Otherwise we are all just guessing what's happening.

100% agree @AussieMick, and had I know more about this stuff when I commissioned the build I would have had one from day one.

I am now thinking of adding one to help with this. They do not look too complex to fit.

I watched this video re soc meters which helped me:

Of those, I liked the look of the AiLi one and also the Victron SmartShunt. The smartshunt uses bluetooth and can connect to my MPPT and show its data on the Victron Connect app - which is attractive to me, but, as you said is a lump more expensive that the simpler AiLi one (about £90 more). As the van is completed, I dont really want anything I have to mount a new screen for in the van. If I did get the Ali one, I would mount the display down with the battery, as I will only need to see it rarely. The vitron one uses bluetooth which is ideal.

I have very little electric stuff in the van in reality. Two lots of independently switchable lights, USB sockets for phones (5v x 1A and 5v x 2A), fridge, and I also have a diesel heater which has a little control unit which would draw something I guess.

All these meters seem to support different capacities, i.e. for the AiLi you can get these. Would the cheapest be OK for my setup?



The Vitron SmartShunt seems to come in 500A and 1000A, those seem very large numbers. Would the 500A be ok I assume it would?

Would either of those products (AiLi 0-80v-50a) or Vitron SmartShunt 500A be equally good in terms of accuracy, suitability?

Thanks,

 

[AussieMick]

I only know the victron bmv712 so I cant compare.
Your electrical stuff like fridge , lights, USB sockets ,diesel heater etc in your van is similar to mine and I have a 500a shunt. You will use more power than you think when wild camping so obviously you want to sort this out, so you can monitor battery.
I mounted head unit near battery as I dont need to see it as I can do everything from settings to reading values on my phone via bluetooth.
Others may be able to advise.

 

[Grim Reaper]

The CTEK D250SE does not have a monitor capability like the victron, however, so long as the open circuit voltage of your solar panel is below 23V, I would say it would have been the better option for connection of your solar panel, since it has the capability of charging the starter battery from the solar panel once the leisure battery is full.
I would have gone for the CTEK and a Victron BMV712 to monitor SOC rather than the CTEK and the smart solar MPPT.

Edited to ad a link to the CTEK manual..

https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/user/downloads/D250SE-manual-low-UK-EN.pdf

 

[Phil_G]

But you can see from his screen shots above that even in this weather his panel is showing 26v under load so its Voc will be even higher - well above the Cteks 23v limit

 

[t0mb0]

100% agree @AussieMick, and had I know more about this stuff when I commissioned the build I would have had one from day one.

I am now thinking of adding one to help with this. They do not look too complex to fit.

I watched this video re soc meters which helped me:

Of those, I liked the look of the AiLi one and also the Victron SmartShunt. The smartshunt uses bluetooth and can connect to my MPPT and show its data on the Victron Connect app - which is attractive to me, but, as you said is a lump more expensive that the simpler AiLi one (about £90 more). As the van is completed, I dont really want anything I have to mount a new screen for in the van. If I did get the Ali one, I would mount the display down with the battery, as I will only need to see it rarely. The vitron one uses bluetooth which is ideal.

I have very little electric stuff in the van in reality. Two lots of independently switchable lights, USB sockets for phones (5v x 1A and 5v x 2A), fridge, and I also have a diesel heater which has a little control unit which would draw something I guess.

All these meters seem to support different capacities, i.e. for the AiLi you can get these. Would the cheapest be OK for my setup?

View attachment 97836

The Vitron SmartShunt seems to come in 500A and 1000A, those seem very large numbers. Would the 500A be ok I assume it would?

Would either of those products (AiLi 0-80v-50a) or Vitron SmartShunt 500A be equally good in terms of accuracy, suitability?

Thanks,

I have a victron bmv and it's excellent. I haven't tried that Aili one so I can't comment on that specifically. However, I have used a cheaper shunt based SoC monitor. My experience is that both were fine and equally accurate about measuring instantaneous current flow. However, the really critical thing with current monitoring devices for SoC is their ability to synchronise and record when the battery is 100% full to reset the current integrating - this is critical because without this you're just integrating current over time and errors accumulate to the point where the SoC estimate is wildly inaccurate. I found that the victron does this very well (and is customisable in terms of its criteria) whereas the cheap one I tried didn't synchronise well so even if the instantaneous current was accurate, the actual SoC was all over the place. Maybe the cheaper one you've found is better than the one I tried though, so read the reviews carefully!

 

[monsteruk]

I have a victron bmv and it's excellent. I haven't tried that Aili one so I can't comment on that specifically. However, I have used a cheaper shunt based SoC monitor. My experience is that both were fine and equally accurate about measuring instantaneous current flow. However, the really critical thing with current monitoring devices for SoC is their ability to synchronise and record when the battery is 100% full to reset the current integrating - this is critical because without this you're just integrating current over time and errors accumulate to the point where the SoC estimate is wildly inaccurate. I found that the victron does this very well (and is customisable in terms of its criteria) whereas the cheap one I tried didn't synchronise well so even if the instantaneous current was accurate, the actual SoC was all over the place. Maybe the cheaper one you've found is better than the one I tried though, so read the reviews carefully!

That's really helpful, thanks.

I think I will just shell out the extra on the Victron 500a SmartShunt. I understand it is comparable to the BMV in terms of function, and although its expensive it records history, works with my MPPT and also displays its data in the same Victron Connect app - so seems money well spent to me.

Talking of Victron Connect... I went into settings earlier and looked at the battery setting. This is what I found:



I have not changed anything on that screen, thats what it is set too now. However, I did notice under Battery Presets, there was a preset for an AGM spiral cell (whatever spiral cell means!) as follows:



You also have the option of manually overloading the values instead of using a pre-set value.

The new battery the converter fitted on 5th January is one of these Hankook ones:



Do I need to do anything with the settings to make it appropriate for this battery? Or should I just leave it as "factory defaults"?

Thanks,

 

[Grim Reaper]

Hankook AGM59520 is not a deep cycle leisure battery, it's a starter battery.
I'm not sure how it will stand up to use as a leisure battery.

 

[t0mb0]

Hankook AGM59520 is not a deep cycle leisure battery, it's a starter battery.
I'm not sure how it will stand up to use as a leisure battery.

The VW factory fit AGM probably technically isn’t either but it’s been fine in my experience.

 

[monsteruk]

Hankook AGM59520 is not a deep cycle leisure battery, it's a starter battery.
I'm not sure how it will stand up to use as a leisure battery.

Hey @Grim Reaper, do you have a link that shows that it is a main vehicle and not a leisure battery? I did a search and found this: Hankook SA59520 AGM Leisure Battery – Battery Megastore which does say its suitable for leisure, but that said, it does not actually look like my battery - mine is grey not yellow for a start. Be good to definitively see a reference that shows not a leisure battery and I can go back to the converter if its wrong.

Thanks,