Living in Wales with 20mph limit #regen

[Lubrown]

Come to think of it, in 29 years of driving, I’ve never had a cyclist shout at me telling me I should do this or that. Meanwhile the occasions I ride my bike I hear verbal abuse or suggestions - including the classic ‘you shouldn’t be on the road, you don’t pay road tax’ (a completely wrong assumption as I pay three lots!), far too often. And the ‘you came out of nowhere’ standard line when someone almost, or in fact does, drive into you… even when you were just happily cycling along a straight road they pulled into, never ceases to pee me off.

Has any driver had a cyclist tell them they should ride a bike? Or is that just in Rishi Sunaks head?

 

[Andpopse]

A couple of observations I’ve made recently.
Drivers bunch up at 20 leaving less stopping distance and drivers (and pedestrians) pull out / cross road in front of you closer, knowing you are going slower. Of course this is human nature but seems to me the number of accidents will be similar. However the additional variation in speeds on main roads requires more concentration, which is sadly lacking in a lot of drivers.
Whilst we have have 30 mph for many many years, vehicles have over these years got far better brakes and many have electronic collision avoidance. So why do we need 20 mph on Main A roads. I agree re 20 mph near schools, hospitals, residential btw.

 

[Lubrown]

vehicles have over these years got far better brakes and many have electronic collision avoidance

Sadly the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads is not going down despite all these technological advances. It’s been at the same level for years now. I assume because phone addiction has gone up in the same time period?
Two sources I saw recently also suggested a serious accident occurs every 17 or 22 minutes. I also read serious accidents cost us £1.6m each in terms of emergency response, healthcare etc. Wasn’t clear if that’s the taxpayer footing the bill or if insurance picks it up. Probably a mix. Even if it’s insurance we all foot the bill through increasing premiums.
Making people drive slower will allow them to stop easier and, should they still not avoid a collision, will prevent too much damage being caused.
If only those people that just cannot focus on driving would either improve or give up - then we could go back to being treated like adults. Your example of bunching up and pulling out in front of people just highlights driving standards are in decline. It would be foolish to not act.

 

[Bav]

Sadly the number of deaths and serious injuries on our roads is not going down

What's your source for this claim? I ask, as there's lots of official data saying the opposite here...

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2022

www.gov.uk

This video - posted by a well-known and well-respected ex police advanced driver trainer - is a sensible, adult conversation about speed and debunks a lot of the inaccurate and, often, hysterical narrative propagated by the media, local & national governments, campaigners, activists and general anti-car agitators...

Of particular relevance is the section where he discusses contributory factors for accidents. Citing data reported by police officers attending accidents that involve death or injury, he notes that excess speed is recorded as a contributory factor (not a sole factor or even a primary factor) in about 5% of reportable accidents. Whilst he acknowledges that the reality is probably higher (maybe as high as 10%), this is still significantly lower than the most prevalent contributory factor: poor observation, recorded for 38% of all such accidents. Given these numbers, I remain resolutely sceptical of any policy that is likely to result in drivers fixating on their speedos to the detriment of their general observation skills.

 

[Deleted member 47379]

What's your source for this claim? I ask, as there's lots of official data saying the opposite here...

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2022

www.gov.uk

This video - posted by a well-known and well-respected ex police advanced driver trainer - is a sensible, adult conversation about speed and debunks a lot of the inaccurate and, often, hysterical narrative propagated by the media, local & national governments, campaigners, activists and general anti-car agitators...

Of particular relevance is the section where he discusses contributory factors for accidents. Citing data reported by police officers attending accidents that involve death or injury, he notes that excess speed is recorded as a contributory factor (not a sole factor or even a primary factor) in about 5% of reportable accidents. Whilst he acknowledges that the reality is probably higher (maybe as high as 10%), this is still significantly lower than the most prevalent contributory factor: poor observation, recorded for 38% of all such accidents. Given these numbers, I remain resolutely sceptical of any policy that is likely to result in drivers fixating on their speedos to the detriment of their general observation skills.

But then surely if you've not been paying attention, once you do finally realise what's happening around you, if you are going slower then you have a better chance of recovering/stopping in time/avoiding than if you are going faster? I'm not trying to say you're wrong here Bav, but just pointing out that these things are complex like many things in life and there's always danger in trying to reduce the discussion to one or two simple factors. People will always find isolated statistics to back up their view as it's difficult to remain dispassionate and look for the actual truth. And no one ever recorded the accident they didn't have because of x,y or z

 

[acompta]

What's your source for this claim? I ask, as there's lots of official data saying the opposite here...

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2022

www.gov.uk

This video - posted by a well-known and well-respected ex police advanced driver trainer - is a sensible, adult conversation about speed and debunks a lot of the inaccurate and, often, hysterical narrative propagated by the media, local & national governments, campaigners, activists and general anti-car agitators...

Of particular relevance is the section where he discusses contributory factors for accidents. Citing data reported by police officers attending accidents that involve death or injury, he notes that excess speed is recorded as a contributory factor (not a sole factor or even a primary factor) in about 5% of reportable accidents. Whilst he acknowledges that the reality is probably higher (maybe as high as 10%), this is still significantly lower than the most prevalent contributory factor: poor observation, recorded for 38% of all such accidents. Given these numbers, I remain resolutely sceptical of any policy that is likely to result in drivers fixating on their speedos to the detriment of their general observation skills.

Couldn’t agree more. Well documented and put.

 

[Bav]

But then surely if you've not been paying attention, once you do finally realise what's happening around you, if you are going slower then you have a better chance of recovering/stopping in time/avoiding than if you are going faster? I'm not trying to say you're wrong here Bav, but just pointing out that these things are complex like many things in life and there's always danger in trying to reduce the discussion to one or two simple factors. People will always find isolated statistics to back up their view as it's difficult to remain dispassionate and look for the actual truth. And no one ever recorded the accident they didn't have because of x,y or z

I hear you @Lumbo. Highly developed observation and planning skills (along with good judgement) are key to reducing the volume and the severity of accidents. As advanced driving courses teach these skills to a much higher level, my counter proposal to blanket 20mph limits is to financially penalise drivers who pass their test, but then fail (within a reasonable timeframe) to continue their driver education via advanced driver training.

I'd suggest the insurers raise a levy on such drivers and that advanced drivers are not only exempt from the levy, but are rewarded with significant insurance discounts that are paid for by the proceeds of the levy. I'm sure some would be horrified by this, but it would incentivise continuous driver development and I honestly believe this would significantly reduce road-related deaths, injuries and financial losses.

 

[dubber36]

I'm all for advanced driver training, but where will the money come from? Yes, if you pay for the training you will be rewarded with lower premiums, so will get that money back, but there are so many people that don't have the money to pay out in the first place.

We are on a motoring forum, so have an interest in these sorts of thing and will make sure that we have the money to spend on our hobby. The vast majority don't tho'. Their priorities could be fags and massive tellys and nothing is going to make them give any of that up even if it teaches them to make the roads safer for everyone.

 

[Bav]

I'm not trying to pretend I have all the answers or that I have a fully thought through (oven-ready? ) solution, but my main thrust is to establish a financial incentive to undertake advanced training, whilst creating a financial disincentive not to do so. What levels of levies and discounts are required to make this happen, I honestly don't know - perhaps 2 or 3 years of paying the levy needs to be as expensive as taking the training. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Bav]

Come to think of it, in 29 years of driving, I’ve never had a cyclist shout at me telling me I should do this or that. Meanwhile the occasions I ride my bike I hear verbal abuse or suggestions - including the classic ‘you shouldn’t be on the road, you don’t pay road tax’ (a completely wrong assumption as I pay three lots!), far too often. And the ‘you came out of nowhere’ standard line when someone almost, or in fact does, drive into you… even when you were just happily cycling along a straight road they pulled into, never ceases to pee me off.

Has any driver had a cyclist tell them they should ride a bike? Or is that just in Rishi Sunaks head?

My French isn't up to translating this, but perhaps this cyclist was telling this driver exactly that.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710243200261353525

 

[Ghost]

I did a 2x 9 mile commute on my MTB (road and bridleway) every weekday for 2 years

I did much the same, but mostly the summer months.
I felt safe, and never had a problem with cars moving at 30mph around me.
Like some have said, don’t have a problem with 20mph around schools/ hospitals, and tbh it’s been like that for a long time.

The problem I see with the new 20mph is its so random.
You could be driving in a 30mph then it will go down to 20mph , and back to 30, for no apparent reason?
..and there’s signs are everywhere !

 

[Andpopse]

I did much the same, but mostly the summer months.
I felt safe, and never had a problem with cars moving at 30mph around me.
Like some have said, don’t have a problem with 20mph around schools/ hospitals, and tbh it’s been like that for a long time.

The problem I see with the new 20mph is its so random.
You could be driving in a 30mph then it will go down to 20mph , and back to 30, for no apparent reason?
..and there’s signs are everywhere !
View attachment 216564

Totally agree. I live on a country road that goes from 20mph to 60mph and it’s two way but maybe only 2.4 m wide at best compete with blind bends !!!!

 

[roadtripper]

We're heading to the Machynlleth area in a week or so to do some of the railways before the end of the season. Have they got the signage up to date in general or do you still have to have your wits about you with areas signed as 30 that no longer are?

Sadly not in the van, no space to parkup at the place we usually stay. The XC70 is a squeeze but that's got so much... patina... I'm a lot less stressed about it

 

[Magpie1832]

We're heading to the Machynlleth area in a week or so to do some of the railways before the end of the season. Have they got the signage up to date in general or do you still have to have your wits about you with areas signed as 30 that no longer are?

Sadly not in the van, no space to parkup at the place we usually stay. The XC70 is a squeeze but that's got so much... patina... I'm a lot less stressed about it

There may be a few places where they have missed signs but generally they are all correct now.

I did much the same, but mostly the summer months.
I felt safe, and never had a problem with cars moving at 30mph around me.
Like some have said, don’t have a problem with 20mph around schools/ hospitals, and tbh it’s been like that for a long time.

The problem I see with the new 20mph is its so random.
You could be driving in a 30mph then it will go down to 20mph , and back to 30, for no apparent reason?
..and there’s signs are everywhere !
View attachment 216564

Went through Denbigh today. On the way into town it goes from 60mph into a a 20 for 500 yards then 60 for at least half a mile then back to 20. What is the point.

 

[Montyg]

Who wants to cycle to work when it is 20 plus miles away and 90% of the time its pissing with rain

Yes and with about 200kg of tools on your back, not to mention the materials.

 

[lightning]

One issue round here is, drivers just don't behave.
And then they moan when the speed limits are reduced, often after a campaign by residents on the particular road.

On Friday l had to drive from Stockport over to Chapel in the High Peak.

The standards of driving were appalling.

The roads were full of drivers bashing their big cars about with no concept of the speed limit, no courtesy, and no idea what was going on 100 yards up the road.

Twice there was a jam up because either drivers never looked, or didn't care about what was going on around them.

Two near misses because people entered a roundabout without looking, or caring, what else was on it.

Every car passing the school l was visiting with a delivery, was speeding. And this was at 3pm.

With driving standards this poor the speed limits are going to keep coming down.

However, when l am on my bike l
rarely encounter bad driving towards me. Most drivers give me a wide berth, or wait until there's room before overtaking.

l keep an eye on what's behind me and if there's a couple of cars, and they can't get past, l will pull over or stop when possible to let them pass.

Many cyclists don't do this. Which is why they are often hated by drivers, blocking narrow roads for miles meaning they can't get past.
Or you'll get a dodgy overtake when the driver gets frustrated, which nobody wants.

 

[Bav]

One issue round here is, drivers just don't behave.
And then they moan when the speed limits are reduced, often after a campaign by residents on the particular road.

On Friday l had to drive from Stockport over to Chapel in the High Peak.

The standards of driving were appalling.

The roads were full of drivers bashing their big cars about with no concept of the speed limit, no courtesy, and no idea what was going on 100 yards up the road.

Twice there was a jam up because either drivers never looked, or didn't care about what was going on around them.

Two near misses because people entered a roundabout without looking, or caring, what else was on it.

Every car passing the school l was visiting with a delivery, was speeding. And this was at 3pm.

With driving standards this poor the speed limits are going to keep coming down.

However, when l am on my bike l
rarely encounter bad driving towards me. Most drivers give me a wide berth, or wait until there's room before overtaking.

l keep an eye on what's behind me and if there's a couple of cars, and they can't get past, l will pull over or stop when possible to let them pass.

Many cyclists don't do this. Which is why they are often hated by drivers, blocking narrow roads for miles meaning they can't get past.
Or you'll get a dodgy overtake when the driver gets frustrated, which nobody wants.

Such driving issues aren't confined to any particular area - IME they happen nationwide. Regardless, it is perverse and illogical to lower the speed limits in response to drivers failing to observe the speed limit. Enforcement of the existing speed limit would be a far more appropriate response, be that via increased police presence or via more speed cameras.

 

[DXX]

Such driving issues aren't confined to any particular area - IME they happen nationwide. Regardless, it is perverse and illogical to lower the speed limits in response to drivers failing to observe the speed limit. Enforcement of the existing speed limit would be a far more appropriate response, be that via increased police presence or via more speed cameras.

Or automatic GPS restricted vehicle speed, it’s coming sooner than we think.
Who’s going to map their way out of that one?

 

[Bav]

Or automatic GPS restricted vehicle speed, it’s coming sooner than we think.
Who’s going to map their way out of that one?

Yep, It is coming - another reason to keep hold of our dinosaur Transporters.

 

[Ghost]

We're heading to the Machynlleth area in a week or so to do some of the railways before the end of the season. Have they got the signage up to date in general or do you still have to have your wits about you with areas signed as 30 that no longer are?

Sadly not in the van, no space to parkup at the place we usually stay. The XC70 is a squeeze but that's got so much... patina... I'm a lot less stressed about it

There’s nothing to worry about, you will see the new speed limit signs as normal, but just think they had 32m to spend, so you will see quite a lot of them.
I don’t know when the cutoff point will be, but if pulled over for doing 24mph atm, it will only be a verbal warning.