New engine required - apparently - what would you do?

[Paynewright]

I have a Porsche 996 3.6 C2 and that can throw 5 figure engine rebuilds - IMS bearing failure or bore scoring. Both are poor design / materials used.

One option many owners take faced with a broken engine is to sell it requiring an engine rebuild and cut out the cost and hassle of getting the car fully operational again. Sadly, many cars are broken as the sum of the parts is more than the whole car. Eg headlights are £400+ each second hand, wheels £1500 a set. Others see as an opportunity and take it out to 3.9 at Hartech!

Would selling as a project needing engine rebuild be worth considering? What would the van be worth with a poorly engine? I’d do the sums and see if it is worth all the effort and cash outlay to fix it.

Ian

 

[crackon]

It's an option I've considered @Paynewright but I still think I'd lose more on the diminution in value from it's fully running value. Would have thought anyone would put a value on the van, look at the cost of repairs and then deduct some more just in case, they would need to err on the side of caution. I guess it depends if there's anyone out there that likes fixing VW engines in order to get their hands on the van itself. You also have to consider that the labour element is potentially only a small element of the cost so less savings to be made for them......or they may have an engine themselves ready to drop in possibly?

 

[crackon]

Re the engine on ebay, I've messaged the seller twice with some questions about themselves and the source of the engine, can I see the donor van, etc, would they consider escrow so that I know it's a good engine as described, and no reply as yet. Rings a few alarm bells!

 

[Howzat]

There's no feedback for any previous engines sold either so my alarm went off at that.

Getting the head off to investigate may be a gamble worth taking and if repairable it would be your easiest and least costly option.

 

[FUSEDSPARKYMARKY]

I've got a 2019 t6.1 - HEADS SUSPECTED GONE ITS UNDER WARRANTY OND ONLY DONE 30K IFEEL LUCK AS ITS UNDER WARRANTY BUT WHOLLY SHOOKMY CONFIDENCE IN THEM AS A BRAND NOWDAYS.

IT'S A : 204 - 4 MOTION - DSG HIGHLINE

GUTTED IM NOW IN A CADDY UNTIL VW CAN REPLACE ME A LARGER VAN DIRECT FROM VW.

 

[catfood12]

OP, sorry to hear of your predicament.

Those compression readings are very very low indeed. I'd expect closer to 400psi, I've seen higher readings than yours on a 20K hour neglected generator that's been running on chip fryer oil!! There must be super extreme bore scoring, or broken rings for them to be that low. What's the crankcase pressure like when you take the oil filler cap off ? The blow by must be massive, I guess that's why you get clouds of smoke.

I've seen HP pumps shed shavings when run dry, apart from that, they're bathed in fresh oily diesel all the time, so rarely self destruct, unless there was perhaps soft spot on an internal cam, or water in the fuel at some point that's caused a rust film to build up and be munched through the system. What's the fuel pressure like ? Unless you or someone ran it dry and didn't prime the pump, although you'd be unlucky to cause some extreme damage with doing this just once. Or someone changed the filter and didn't prime it correctly, causing it to run dry. That's a lot of swarf to damage all four bores to the level you're seeing and clog all of the injectors.

I would also suggest looking at the fuel filter to see if it has damage, disintegration, or contamination when it was changed. None of this helps your situation however.

As other's have said, this fault must have been developing for some time. For a van recently out of warranty with FSH, they should be some recourse. The only proper answer and best course of action you'll get will be from a lawyer presented will all of the facts, rather than, in the nicest possible way, just relying on the forum.

Some posters have said get a fluid test done. We use this lot for oil and fuel tests;

The Oil Lab - Oil and fuel testing service - The Oil Lab

Utilising our systems and experience we can help our customers avoid expensive machinery and equipment failure by testing oil and fuel, interpreting results and reporting in an easy to understand report. Condition monitoring is also an important part of our service – regular sampling to detect...

www.theoillab.co.uk

Very detailed reports, it can only strengthen your case to get an objective measurement of fuel and oil at this stage.

Mods; I have no commercial connection to the Oil Lab, just posting as a repeat customer.

 

[crackon]

Thanks @catfood12 all useful stuff. The van is currently at Dragon Engines in Chesterfield to be fully assessed prior to repair. I have already had oil and fuel sample tests done - see attached report, the fuel looks clean so I can only imagine it's a part that is faulty. Once I have the results of the independent assessment, I will be consulting my legal representatives to look into it (fortunately I have an insurance for this so don't need to worry about the costs ) before confronting VW.

 

[mmi]

Thanks @catfood12 all useful stuff. The van is currently at Dragon Engines in Chesterfield to be fully assessed prior to repair. I have already had oil and fuel sample tests done - see attached report, the fuel looks clean so I can only imagine it's a part that is faulty. Once I have the results of the independent assessment, I will be consulting my legal representatives to look into it (fortunately I have an insurance for this so don't need to worry about the costs ) before confronting VW.

How long since the oil change (months+miles)?

 

[crackon]

@mmi Oil last changed 3 months before issue surfaced. Probably no more than 2000 miles before.

 

[mmi]

@mmi Oil last changed 3 months before issue surfaced. Probably no more than 2000 miles before.

Thanks. I had my oil analyzed after 18 months and 15000 miles. On mine all the contaminants were 2-3 times higher than in your report. Most likely new oil gets some "initial" contamination from the remnants of old oil.

 

[DXX]

Glad you got the oil and fuel analysis done, those results improve your case significantly.
3% fuel dilution in 2000 miles is high. Make sure you present the actual milage and not an estimate to VW.
I assume you have proof of the oil grade / spec that was used in the last oil change.

 

[DXX]

Thanks. I had my oil analyzed after 18 months and 15000 miles. On mine all the contaminants were 2-3 times higher than in your report. Most likely new oil gets some "initial" contamination from the remnants of old oil.

It’s a bit of a chain reaction with oil contamination. All filters have a micron rating, below this rating the smaller particles won’t be filtered out but will continue circulating and eroding engine components.
No filter can capture all particles on a single pass so a small percentage will go through the filter and accelerate wear.....and so on.
Expensive industrial machinery has offline filtration and purification systems which constantly clean the oil regardless of machinery operating.
For auto engines the best we can do is regular oil and filter changes. IMO the two year interval is there to increase fleet availability and reduce servicing costs, it has nothing to do with better oil spec’s or longevity.
All manufacturers would prefer a vehicle to be scrapped and a new one purchased after a fixed time, no different to washing machines and fridges!

 

[crackon]

Just had the report back from Dragon - as follows

We have removed the engine from the vehicle and can confirm that on removal we identified that the EGR cooler has failed which is a common issue on this model vehicle.
As previously reported the fuel sample has counted very dirty and this will require the fuel tank to be removed and cleaned as the sediment will have settled in the bottom of the tank and will reoccur if not cleaned correctly. At this stage we cannot see that the in-tank fuel pump would need replacing as there are no metallic particles in the fuel sample, we will confirm this once the tank has been removed for cleaning.
The injectors have all failed as a result of the dirty fuel which has scored and worn the injector nozzles and all injectors will need replacing.
The engine has now been dismantled and we can confirm the engine has suffered due to incorrect fuelling and the cylinder bores are glazed and washed as a result and cylinder 1 piston is sat down in the cylinder bore as a result of the injector over fuelling.

The quote to fix that is £6.5k+vat which involves an engine rebuild new injectors, new EGR cooler and various filters and a DPF clean. Perversely I think that sounds like a good outcome compared with VW wanting to charge 14.5k + VAT to replace everything.

What's odd is that VW's fuel sample was clean and Dragon's was dirty.....must find out more.

 

[Paynewright]

Why is one piston further down the bore and what has caused it - hydraulic lock with excess fuel and a bent rod?

 

[Howzat]

What's odd is that VW's fuel sample was clean and Dragon's was dirty.....must find out more.

This is confusing. So the EGR has failed but that wouldn't cause the piston issue would it?
Surely that's a fuel issue so I guess the question is how did the fuel get dirty?

 

[crackon]

It would appear the EGR Cooler is a separate issue.

As regards the fuelling side, Dragon tested the fuel in the tank, apparently main dealers often test after the filter. The dirty fuel caused the injectors to fail, overfuelling cylinder 1 especially which hydro-locked and indeed bent the rod.

Dragon said the dirty fuel is just from the forecourt, nothing other than that, and that whilst the fuel filter stops 90% of the dirt, it is the tiny invisible stuff that gets through and damages the injectors. Worringly, that would imply that anyone's fuel filter is not sufficient to protect the injectors from damage and therefore we could all be driving ticking time bombs and the first we know is when it's too late.

 

[Paynewright]

I dont know if this is related or not, but if a fuel station has a tanker on the forecourt unloading fuel I’ll go to the next station.

Also, you’d think the pump would have some sort of filter.

Very annoying as neigh impossible to find the culpret unless you always fill at the same place.

Good luck with the rebuild.

Ian

 

[jimc91]

Can you remember where you last filled up, standard or premium diesel, supermarket or branded garage

 

[Howzat]

So yet another VW part not fit for purpose. I"m beginning to wonder if the regens are to blame for a lot of the issues I read about here.
Extra fuel is being pumped in to get the engine hot which won't help if you have dirty fuel.
The engine noise when it starts just sounds like an engine being run hard which can't be good in the long (or even short) run.

 

[crackon]

It would have been standard diesel and most likely a supermarket. I was under the impression it was a myth about the fuel being different at supermarkets to branded stations, I thought the majority of the tankers pick up from the same local distribution hub/refinery. Has anyone ever seen a Tesco or Sainsburys fuel terminus? I'm pretty sure down here most fuel comes out of Fawley refinery.