Van Speed Limit?

[Ravennablue]

Sorry chaps I've been a while getting back but just got VL5C for the new Shuttle which I actually collected on Monday.
The Shuttle classification type is MPV and taxation classification is Diesel Car. So I guess I'm ok (he says smugly)

 

[carlg]

Just had van re weighed at a council way bridge and gosh shock horror it came in at 2140 kg ,empty van no fuel .
So brochure weight is slightly out .
I just wonder if second slider and tow bar makes the extra weight .

 

[superflyguy]

Just had my 140 T28 swb, Panel van turned Kombi at the council weigh bridge today, 2+1 rear seats with just under 1/4 tank fuel in.
1880KG , so happy chappy.
Then I came home and fitted my double seat swivel that weighs a ton !!!

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

Having done some more research, I have found the following. Some of this is not new news, but I thought it may be useful to summarise everything I found in one place

• 'Mass in service' as quoted in the V5 has the same definition as VW's 'unladen weight' - includes a driver @ 75kg (yeah right!) and 90% fuel load
• 75kg + 90% fuel load (assuming diesel) is 129kg as previously mentioned in this thread
• The DoT document ' Car derived vans and dual purpose vehicles' published 15th March 2015 defines a dual purpose vehicle as being under 2040kg unladen weight and either 4wd or having the specified extra seats and windows.
• Unladen weight is defined by the DoT in the 1986 construction and use regs as a vehicle without driver and fuel

Therefore I reckon that the only number the police/courts would use would be the 'mass in service' weight defined on the V5, less 129kg to determine unladen weight, whatever you have had your van weighed at

My 150ps kombi highline 4motion is shown on the V5 mass in service as 2233kg which would be 2104kg unladen weight. The brochure states 2186kg which would still equal 2057kg so still no point in trying to argue the toss.

Grrr

 

[T6 Dave's Dad]

@Thogg. I would appreciate your advice on ulw for a T6 Kombi LWB 140 ps EU5, 6 spd manual box Highline that has a brochure ulw of 2107 kg which with deductions for driver and 90% of 70 litre diesel tank comes in at 1977 kg. It has factory second slider and tow bar. Am I correct in thinking this might still qualify as a multi-use vehicle?

 

[Thogg]

@Thogg. I would appreciate your advice on ulw for a T6 Kombi LWB 140 ps EU5, 6 spd manual box Highline that has a brochure ulw of 2107 kg which with deductions for driver and 90% of 70 litre diesel tank comes in at 1977 kg. It has factory second slider and tow bar. Am I correct in thinking this might still qualify as a multi-use vehicle?

Yep, as long as it comes n under 2040kg and meets the definition then it qualifies. The weight of the second slider and the tow bar are a matter for you really. If it was me, I'd get it weighed as previously discussed on this thread. I suspect you'll find that you still come in under 2040kg anyway but at least you'll know.
If it's over then personally I'd be quoting the official figures from VW (minus deductions) if the need arose...
One thing I'm not sure of.. what does your V5 mass in service say? I'm wondering if each vehicle leave the factory with its own bespoke weight..

 

[T6 Dave's Dad]

@Thogg. Thanks for the reply. The question is theoretical at the moment as I am considering and looking so don't have access to documentation. If I get serious I should have original documentation, but handy to know for visits.

 

[T6 Dave]

@Captain Mainwaring & @Thogg , many thanks for the info , I will have to ask the dealer for the V5 figures, or wait until I get my hands on it to get the definite answer .

 

[T6 Dave]

@Thogg , I could see the case for them weighing them at some point on assembly line, as there are so many options and combinations, that really each one is different to the other, and we all know how the Germans like to document things, and the Europeans like their rules!

 

[former member]

I think every option should have a weight attached to it.

 

[T6 Dave]

Hi all, looking at the weight of a basic lwb Trendline kombi 102Ps Euro 5. 5speed man BMT, and same but Euro 6 there is an extra 26kg on the Euro 6. I think that this might relate to the AddBlue tank, which will also be full, and the extra dosing pump etc. So think that you could argue the added AdBlue weight has to be taken into consideration on the Euro 6 spec as is part of the "fuel" as vehicle won't run without it being present (every little helps?).

 

[Thogg]

Have a look at the size of the ad blue reservoir (from memory it's 12 l) it's only the liquids that can be discounted not the hardware

 

[Mojo]

I'm not sure where the DVLA get their 'mass in service' figures from as my V5C states 2117kg but VW's specifications brochure shows it at 2088kg with the 75kg driver and 90% fuel??
Thankfully still under the 2040kg unladen either way...

 

[Radorik]

I've just been through this entire post. I thought before hand a kombi would be normal speed limits full stop. Sorry if I've completely lost the plot here, but doesn't the first definition of under 2040kg and drive to all wheels mean it has to be a 4motion under 2040kg?

If so, as the lightest T6 SWB 4motion weighs 2205kg - 130kg (driver / fuel allowance), that leaves 2075kg. So no kombi will adhere to the dual purpose rule?

Surely the police would take notice of a weigh bridge cert and go by the VW values? The rear seats, passenger side front seat, mats, basically anything removable could be taken out to give it a chance. Do they list on the weight paperwork that the kombi had everything attached?

As for my future DSG 4motion T32 204ps, absolutely no chance and why didn't VW try and make them under the magical number?..

 

[Captain Mainwaring]

I am sure @Thogg can provide a more definitive answer, but my researches suggest that the police will go by the "mass in service weight" on the V5, minus the 129kg. My guess is they would not take a a weighbridge cert as you could not prove you had not removed normal/essential items to get it under the weight.

Non 4motion Kombis might qualify if they meet the seat/window etc requirements but us 4motion owners have no chance unless it's low power and low spec . FWIW my 150ps 4motion Highline clocked in at 2060kg with the back seats removed but with about 10kg of dog cage and mat in it. I estimate the rear seats at about 75kg?

 

[Thogg]

I've just been through this entire post. I thought before hand a kombi would be normal speed limits full stop. Sorry if I've completely lost the plot here, but doesn't the first definition of under 2040kg and drive to all wheels mean it has to be a 4motion under 2040kg?

If so, as the lightest T6 SWB 4motion weighs 2205kg - 130kg (driver / fuel allowance), that leaves 2075kg. So no kombi will adhere to the dual purpose rule?

Surely the police would take notice of a weigh bridge cert and go by the VW values? The rear seats, passenger side front seat, mats, basically anything removable could be taken out to give it a chance. Do they list on the weight paperwork that the kombi had everything attached?

As for my future DSG 4motion T32 204ps, absolutely no chance and why didn't VW try and make them under the magical number?..

You've not lost the plot. You've just missed a vital word ....... "or"
Dual purpose has to be under 2040kg and then either drive to all wheels blah blah
OR
Satisfy the definition re windows and seats etc.

 

[Thogg]

I am sure @Thogg can provide a more definitive answer, but my researches suggest that the police will go by the "mass in service weight" on the V5, minus the 129kg. My guess is they would not take a a weighbridge cert as you could not prove you had not removed normal/essential items to get it under the weight.

Non 4motion Kombis might qualify if they meet the seat/window etc requirements but us 4motion owners have no chance unless it's low power and low spec . FWIW my 150ps 4motion Highline clocked in at 2060kg with the back seats removed but with about 10kg of dog cage and mat in it. I estimate the rear seats at about 75kg?

The level of investigation will dictate how bothered the police are. For a simple speeding ticket where you've been pinged at 70 and they are claiming you should be doing 60 any evidence you can provide that it's a dual purpose vehicle will help. Be it mass in service, quoted VW weights or a weighbridge certificate (accepting the issue of not knowing what's in there when it's weighed).
If you have been involved in a serious or fatal RTC and speed or weight is an issue... expect your vehicle to be weighed evidentially with very little you can do about it.
I guess the point of the thread is this. If you think you are dual purpose and get stuck on for exceeding the van speed limits then contest it with whatever you can find. You may just find that a simple letter stating "my vehicle meets the definition of dual purpose and therefore is subject to normal car speed limits" is enough to get a ticket written off. There are 2 main offences.. exceeding whatever the speed limit is and exceeding it for class of vehicle.... if you are in the 80s plus... you'll have your work cut out for you...

 

[Gadgets]

I've just been through this entire post. I thought before hand a kombi would be normal speed limits full stop. Sorry if I've completely lost the plot here, but doesn't the first definition of under 2040kg and drive to all wheels mean it has to be a 4motion under 2040kg?

If so, as the lightest T6 SWB 4motion weighs 2205kg - 130kg (driver / fuel allowance), that leaves 2075kg. So no kombi will adhere to the dual purpose rule?

Surely the police would take notice of a weigh bridge cert and go by the VW values? The rear seats, passenger side front seat, mats, basically anything removable could be taken out to give it a chance. Do they list on the weight paperwork that the kombi had everything attached?

As for my future DSG 4motion T32 204ps, absolutely no chance and why didn't VW try and make them under the magical number?..

I think the VAT rule @ 20% reclaim (100% reclaim) has something to do with this on the T32 anyway as it makes it over the weight threshold. If you can get a basic Kombi T30 under the weight threshold then you will be ok driving at car speeds but I understand the full 20% VAT reclaim is not possible on the T30 (only on T32 which is another reason why businesses buy T32 version)
I am sure it's the UK government squeezing every last drop of cash out and company car taxation perks rules over a car and van differ.
Generally "Van" drivers know the 50/60/70 rule applies (Berlingo, VW Caddy, Transit, Vito, Transporter etc no side windows and 2 ton laiden your a commercial vehicle "simples no argument) The Dual purpose rule is only up to the weight on the V5 and would ping up on speeding cameras via the link to DVLA. A police officer would probably only pull you if going over 70 but it's a risk you take. I got a fine in my Vito dual liner at 70 on a 70 dual carriageway. I fought it and won and the case was over turned (because my Vito was swb and only just under the weight limit) otherwise it was 3 points for the + 10mph speed 60/70 and 3 points for the class of vehicle going over its restricted speed limit for its class (6 POINTS!) I originally started a similar posting a while ago giving the heads up about this as lots of drivers don't know about the van speed limits due to weight. Personally I feel if VW mini bus can do 70 then a Kombi should. Again I am sure it's to do with commercial vehicle VAT reclaim by business as a van well T32 anyway. At least members now know that have read this posting and can now do own research and double check on the VAT side of things too.

 

[T6 Dave]

@Gadgets I'm not sure ref the vat info that you are saying about above but would make the remark that the VAT status on a vehicle has no bearing in law on construction and use, it is down to the marker of N1 on the logbook, and the weight and layout of the vehicle as mentioned in the mass in service reference on the logbook. HMRC can change vat rulings, as dictated by the chancellor, whereas the construction and use are an altogether different matter.

Please note, no offence is intended by my remarks.

I will re post the letter from DVLA to @Thogg below as it is current, and people can then read it again to make up their own minds. All this is a grey minefield, and you have to bear in mind @Thogg s day job, yet we are still questioning this. I might suggest either an email from @Pauly to DVLA, or like @Thogg, you take the time to email DVLA with hour logbook details, and ask their opinion.

Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me for reply. Please note that I cannot give legal advice, or give a definitive view on a particular vehicle, but I can point you to the relevant legislation.

Speed limits for vehicles of certain classes are set out in schedule ‪6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984‬. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Your vehicle has been registered as type N1 which denotes a goods vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. You do not mention what body type is recorded on the registration document. If it states ‘panel van’ and the vehicle has been converted you will need to apply to DVLA to amend the registration document. Change vehicle details on a V5C registration certificate (log book) - GOV.UK

As a goods vehicle the applicable maximum speed limits would be 50mph on single carriageway roads, 60mph on dual carriageway roads and 70mph on motorways.

However, if, as you believe, the vehicle qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle it will be subject to the national speed limits. As you are aware The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part 1 Regulation 3(2) defines a dual purpose vehicle as:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which
]is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
[if !supportLists](a) [endif]the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
[if !supportLists](b) [endif]the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
[if !supportLists](i) [endif]be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
[if !supportLists](ii) [endif]be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
[if !supportLists](c) [endif]the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

If your vehicle meets the above criteria for a dual purpose vehicle it should be restricted to the national speed limits of 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways.

 

[Gadgets]

@Gadgets I'm not sure ref the vat info that you are saying about above but would make the remark that the VAT status on a vehicle has no bearing in law on construction and use, it is down to the marker of N1 on the logbook, and the weight and layout of the vehicle as mentioned in the mass in service reference on the logbook. HMRC can change vat rulings, as dictated by the chancellor, whereas the construction and use are an altogether different matter.

Please note, no offence is intended by my remarks.

I will re post the letter from DVLA to @Thogg below as it is current, and people can then read it again to make up their own minds. All this is a grey minefield, and you have to bear in mind @Thogg s day job, yet we are still questioning this. I might suggest either an email from @Pauly to DVLA, or like @Thogg, you take the time to email DVLA with hour logbook details, and ask their opinion.

Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me for reply. Please note that I cannot give legal advice, or give a definitive view on a particular vehicle, but I can point you to the relevant legislation.

Speed limits for vehicles of certain classes are set out in schedule ‪6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984‬. Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

Your vehicle has been registered as type N1 which denotes a goods vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. You do not mention what body type is recorded on the registration document. If it states ‘panel van’ and the vehicle has been converted you will need to apply to DVLA to amend the registration document. Change vehicle details on a V5C registration certificate (log book) - GOV.UK

As a goods vehicle the applicable maximum speed limits would be 50mph on single carriageway roads, 60mph on dual carriageway roads and 70mph on motorways.

However, if, as you believe, the vehicle qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle it will be subject to the national speed limits. As you are aware The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part 1 Regulation 3(2) defines a dual purpose vehicle as:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which
]is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
[if !supportLists](a) [endif]the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
[if !supportLists](b) [endif]the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
[if !supportLists](i) [endif]be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
[if !supportLists](ii) [endif]be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
[if !supportLists](c) [endif]the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

If your vehicle meets the above criteria for a dual purpose vehicle it should be restricted to the national speed limits of 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways.

If your in any doubt stick to the van speed limits. The T30. / T32 vat reclaim Others have also posted up about that minefield trap door too. Use your speed limiters! Your van Salesman should mention the T30 VAT situation during your buying discussions surely?