Crankshaft seal no 2 has gone.

[jimc91]

So tomorrow if vw offer to fit a seal and another timing belt i have to say don't charge me if it doesn't hold ?
If it doesn't hold then the other mechanic was right but fitted the timing belt on wrong in the rush to get it out of the garage . The bad noise was only after the second attempt. It never sounded that bad before. Maybe a tiny flutter higher up the revs.
The main dealer said they'd never had a crankshaft seal leak post fitting ( But they would say that).
And if it's all fine after new seal i go back to the other mechanic and ask for a refund.
I hope it's that simple but I'm not convinced.

if it was me I would ask the VW mechanisc to take some photos of the seal and housing etc, if it shows it has been fitted incorrectly then write to the other mechanic enclosing the photos asking for a refund - always put these things in writing. It would be very difficult for him to argue he had fitted it correctly if the manufacturer says its wrong. If its been fitted correctly then why did it fail? The same with the timing belt. VW should be able to give you a written report after they have taken everything apart.

 

[flyingging]

Well apparently the main dealer is waiting for a reply from the Germans and crankshaft was mentioned. I didn't think it was going to be that simple. I haven't talked to the mechanic god as yet only the lass on the reception.

 

[flyingging]

Still waiting for the Germans to reply. There's talk of the Amarok crankshaft issues known by vw and if so they would help out.

 

[flyingging]

The Germans said... strip it and have a look at the crankshaft ? At least they replied ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[flyingging]

So that's the noise !
The main dealer thinks I've been through a flood ! Definitely not. Why such a catastrophic failure ?

 

[DXX]

So they’re saying that the main bearing cap bolts sheared because the cylinder has been flooded with water and caused hydraulic lock? If that were the case the connecting rod on that cylinder would almost certainly be bent as well.
The suspected incorrect valve timing could also load the main bearing cap bolts as the valve and piston crown would be in contact forcing down on the main bearing.
Either way it isn’t looking good for the crankshaft which could easily be bent.

 

[flyingging]

So their saying that the main bearing cap bolts sheared because the cylinder has been flooded with water and caused hydraulic lock?
I can’t see how that would load the main bearing cap bolts, it would cause the connecting rod to bend though

Good point.
I think they're trying to get out of helping with costs. I've not done anything with water. Annoying being accused. The mechanic is replacing the bolts and bearing as hopeful it'll be fine afterwards. If not new short engine. He's checked the torque on the other bolts and they're fine.

 

[DXX]

Good point.
I think they're trying to get out of helping with costs. I've not done anything with water. Annoying being accused. The mechanic is replacing the bolts and bearing as hopeful it'll be fine afterwards. If not new short engine. He's checked the torque on the other bolts and they're fine.

I just made an edit to my earlier reply

 

[flyingging]

So they’re saying that the main bearing cap bolts sheared because the cylinder has been flooded with water and caused hydraulic lock? If that were the case the connecting rod on that cylinder would almost certainly be bent as well.
Could this be a result of incorrect valve timing; piston crown and valves in contact also loading the main bearing cap bolts?

The mechanic was happy not to check the pistons.

 

[catfood12]

Crikey.... I've not seen snapped mains bolts for years! That why the Chevy small block has 4 bolt mains!

Hydrolock wouldn't cause that. More likely out of balance crank, or an over/under torqued bolt that sheared and cause the other one to fail. I see they've failed at different lengths.

No wonder the seal leaked!

I'd be more worried about crank straightness, as @DXX says. Or other dramas such as oil starvation to the big ends around no.1, or oil starvation to rest of engine, as it was all flooding out of no.1 mains. Surprised also the shell didn't spin if the cap was floating about.....

Easy check the crank with a dial gauge and the cap off. Harder to see if it binds just by feel when you put the cap back on. Worth replacing all the mains bolts whilst it's in bits.....

 

[flyingging]

They are ringing later about the costs. He mentioned there is a possibility of the crank being slightly bent but thought it would be ok. It's a tough call.
I could insist on a short engine but how much would that cost ?
I have insisted there's been no water and if i had done something I'd have said so as I'd wanted the van fixed asap and what's the point in pissing around.

 

[catfood12]

Where are the bolt failure points in relation to the interface between the block and the cap ? I don't suppose that there's anything at the shear point, like a void in the middle of the bolt ? I reckon just incorrect tightening caused this.

Not sure how the mechanic can check the torque of the other bolts. They're torque to yield bolts, so you can't accurately just check the tightness....

I'd pop out the top of the mains shell, and stick a dial gauge on the journal. 5 minute job, you'll know then either way. If it is bent, you're storing up trouble for it binding on the shell, and wearing the coating off in not too many miles...

 

[flyingging]

Where are the bolt failure points in relation to the interface between the block and the cap ? I don't suppose that there's anything at the shear point, like a void in the middle of the bolt ? I reckon just incorrect tightening caused this.

Not sure how the mechanic can check the torque of the other bolts. They're torque to yield bolts, so you can't accurately just check the tightness....

I'd pop out the top of the mains shell, and stick a dial gauge on the journal. 5 minute job, you'll know then either way. If it is bent, you're storing up trouble for it binding on the shell, and wearing the coating off in not too many miles...

He said it wasn't possible to check the torque like you said.

 

[flyingging]

How much would a new short engine cost?
I'm awaiting the call for how much to do the new bolts and bits.

 

[DXX]

The correct way to check a crankshaft for alignment in place is with a set of deflection measurements taken between set points on the crank webs with a dial gauge micrometer while rotating the shaft with or without the connecting rods attached (best done without and then again with rods connected)
I have no idea if VW use this practice or how tight the tolerances are on this engines crankshaft. In 43 years of working with engines, compressors and other rotating equipment I have never been in a position where I have heard ’the crankshaft may be a slightly bent but should be ok’. As @catfood12 has pointed out the other main bearing bolts have taken the additional load from the failed pair so all main bearing cap bolts need replacing. Also mentioned earlier was the possible reduction in oil pressure, almost certainly the affected cylinder would have had reduced pressure if the main bearing cap had been loose. The oil fed through the connecting rod lubricated the small end bearing / gudgeon pin, piston rings and cools the piston skirt and in some cases the crown.
You’re probably in the best place to get the work done but IMO they are making some assumptions and certainly not following some well established engine repair practices.

 

[flyingging]

I'm in their hands. I'm trying to find out what guarantees are in place after if any ?
Trying to blame me for going through water has pissed me off some what.

 

[DXX]

I'm in their hands. I'm trying to find out what guarantees are in place after if any ?
Trying to blame me for going through water has pissed me off some what.

If you are 100% sure water hasn’t been ingested there must be another cause. If water has gone through the induction the air filter will be a complete mess, unless it happened when the previous garage had the induction stripped out?
Other sources of fluid that could cause a cylinder lock;
1. Fuel, leaking injector.
2. Coolant, has the level dropped at some point.
3. Oil, unlikely on a fairly new van.

From 08 Jan:

According to vw timing is out I advised him to contact the previous tech and speak to him regarding pay for the out come as he’s done the cam belt so god knows how bad the outcome is

How far was the valve timing out, was it far enough to make piston / valve contact?
Are you dealing with the same mech’ that identified the valve timing issue?

 

[flyingging]

If you are 100% sure water hasn’t been ingested there must be another cause. If water has gone through the induction the air filter will be a complete mess, unless it happened when the previous garage had the induction stripped out?
Other sources of fluid that could cause a cylinder lock;
1. Fuel, leaking injector.
2. Coolant, has the level dropped at some point.
3. Oil, unlikely on a fairly new van.

From 08 Jan:


How far was the valve timing out, was it far enough to make piston / valve contact?
Are you dealing with the same mech’ that identified the valve timing issue?

Van hasn't done a thing wrong until now. Not one warning light has ever come on. Not sure about which tech found what. No water level drop. Nothing at all has happened. Long life Oil changes at 15000 miles. Mechanically looked after. Wife banned from driving it too!

 

[Grim Reaper]

Incorrect timing causing piston/valve contact on no 1 or 4 cylinder (either end of the crankshaft) which has taken the path of least resistance and broken the crank bearing bolts (and possibly bent the rod).
Probably did it on initial start up after reassembly (would have make a big bang) so timing not being checked after reassembly is the cause.
I expect the valves will be bent as well (probably all of them by now)

 

[flyingging]

Incorrect timing causing piston/valve contact on no 1 or 4 cylinder (either end of the crankshaft) which has taken the path of least resistance and broken the crank bearing bolts (and possibly bent the rod).
Probably did it on initial start up after reassembly (would have make a big bang) so timing not being checked after reassembly is the cause.
I expect the valves will be bent as well (probably all of them by now)

Hope not !
That's the worry if the other garage f.... up and haven't said so !