Van Speed Limit?

[Thogg]

Just checked my V5 and my velle is classed as M1, diesel car, just off to do a 70mph burn up for the hell of it!

And that's because its construction and use was only ever intended for passengers not goods. Hence.. it's considered a car...even though it looks like a van! Simple..

 

[Thogg]

I hear my kids talking- I'll nod and agree whilst keeping a mental note of what they've said so I can have a look on the urban dictionary.
I'm so very old

Got the emoticons down though!! Urban dictionary.. now there's an adventure into the world of deviants!

 

[Thogg]

So. I lied when I said I was gonna shut up about this. I emailed the department for transport to get their take on it. Below is the email I sent and the reply from one of their policy advisors.



Morning.

I am trying to find out whether an N1 classified vehicle can qualify as dual use if it meets the construction and use regulations.
Specifically a VW Kombi. The vehicle meets the definition of dual purpose regarding weights and seats and windows etc but has an N1 classification.
Does the fact that it meets the criterior for a dual purpose vehicle mean it is subject to the car speed limits rather than the goods vehicle ones.
The information online suggests that this is the case.. However there is a massive amount of confusion out there regarding this.
Vans, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles
Most vans under 7.5 tonnes laden (loaded) weight, including Ford Transit vans:

• have a lower speed limit than cars
• must follow the speed limits for goods vehicles of the same weight

A vehicle qualifying as a ‘car-derived van’ or ‘dual-purpose vehicle’ has the same speed limits as a car.

eagerly awaiting a response
regards
Tim



Tim
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me for reply. Please note that I cannot give legal advice, or give a definitive view on a particular vehicle, but I can point you to the relevant legislation.

Speed limits for vehicles of certain classes are set out in schedule ‪6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984‬. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Your vehicle has been registered as type N1 which denotes a goods vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. You do not mention what body type is recorded on the registration document. If it states ‘panel van’ and the vehicle has been converted you will need to apply to DVLA to amend the registration document. Change vehicle details on a V5C registration certificate (log book) - GOV.UK

As a goods vehicle the applicable maximum speed limits would be 50mph on single carriageway roads, 60mph on dual carriageway roads and 70mph on motorways.

However, if, as you believe, the vehicle qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle it will be subject to the national speed limits. As you are aware The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part 1 Regulation 3(2) defines a dual purpose vehicle as:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which
]is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
[if !supportLists](a) [endif]the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
[if !supportLists](b) [endif]the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—
[if !supportLists](i) [endif]be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
[if !supportLists](ii) [endif]be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and
[if !supportLists](c) [endif]the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

If your vehicle meets the above criteria for a dual purpose vehicle it should be restricted to the national speed limits of 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways.
Regards

Tony


Mr TonyL Smith
Policy Advisor, Freight: Vehicle Speeds, Drivers’ Hours and Enforcement.

 

[chriscroft]

Just checked my V5 and my velle is classed as M1, diesel car, just off to do a 70mph burn up for the hell of it!

Just off to overtake some "snails of the road" Kombis woooooooooo,

 

[Caravellet6]

Just off to overtake some "snails of the road" Kombis woooooooooo,

Just because we can!

 

[Caravellet6]

And that's because its construction and use was only ever intended for passengers not goods. Hence.. it's considered a car...even though it looks like a van! Simple..

Cheers @Thogg, first time my v5 has ever been useful!

 

[Davenjo]

The above mentions unladen weight not above 2040kg - looking at the specs there are not that many Kombi vans that fall below this?? If you've got a Startline SWB you should be OK unless it's 4 motion (2082 kg) but any higher spec the higher powered and/or DSG seem to go above this???

 

[Thogg]

Hi Dave,
Good point well made
The construction and use regs rely on the true unladen weight. The VW figures on their website allow for a driver weighing 75kg and a 90% full tank of fuel. Which broadly speaking means you can take about 130 kg off the VW published unladen weights. This brings a few more models into play but the high end 204 bi turbos will struggle along with some of the others.

 

[Thogg]

Just having a quick look in the SWB it's the 204 4 motions that will suffer and in the LWB again it's pretty much the 4 motion.

 

[Mojo]

Is all this a bit of a double edged sword as some people will be wanting to argue that their Kombi IS a van for tax reasons

 

[Thogg]

Is all this a bit of a double edged sword as some people will be wanting to argue that their Kombi IS a van for tax reasons

Luckily I only deal with the RTA and not HMRC!! I don't know enough about that side of it to give a sensible answer... especially on nights!

 

[Scruffy]

I've read all the available info, and can't find anywhere where the Mercedes Sprinter is exempt from all speed limits, and in fact the laws of physics.

 

[Rick]

I have a ford galaxy which is a car based Mpv so car speed limits apply
A van based mpv is classed as a van so van speed limits apply
It all based on the what the vehicle was derived from I.e. Van or car regardless of what it is converted to
Speed cameras can't differentiate one from the other but a policeman or hand held camera would know the difference so the penalty can be issued

 

[Caravellet6]

I have a ford galaxy which is a car based Mpv so car speed limits apply
A van based mpv is classed as a van so van speed limits apply
It all based on the what the vehicle was derived from I.e. Van or car regardless of what it is converted to
Speed cameras can't differentiate one from the other but a policeman or hand held camera would know the difference so the penalty can be issued

Did you see my post re my V5? If DVLA tell me it's a car I believe them.....

 

[Thogg]

I have a ford galaxy which is a car based Mpv so car speed limits apply
A van based mpv is classed as a van so van speed limits apply
It all based on the what the vehicle was derived from I.e. Van or car regardless of what it is converted to
Speed cameras can't differentiate one from the other but a policeman or hand held camera would know the difference so the penalty can be issued

Could you get in touch with the department for transport and let them know? ....They are getting it wrong....

 

[Gadgets]

I was cought on a 70 dual carriageway doing 70 in my Vito dual liner (Kimbi) I had 1 row of rear seats and factory fitted windows and seat belts. I used the above argument dual purpose vehicle and the fact I carry cargo up to 1 ton is incidental. The fine was over turned and I got let off. I kept the letter in case it happened again. I understand DVLA updated the details held as upon arriving at tolls I pay as a car. However the Vito Swb weight limit was blooming close but my T6 Highline T32 204 Dsg Kombi on order is definitely over the weight for trying the dual purpose argument. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to speed sir.

 

[Thogg]

I was cought on a 70 dual carriageway doing 70 in my Vito dual liner (Kimbi) I had 1 row of rear seats and factory fitted windows and seat belts. I used the above argument dual purpose vehicle and the fact I carry cargo up to 1 ton is incidental. The fine was over turned and I got let off. I kept the letter in case it happened again. I understand DVLA updated the details held as upon arriving at tolls I pay as a car. However the Vito Swb weight limit was blooming close but my T6 Highline T32 204 Dsg Kombi on order is definitely over the weight for trying the dual purpose argument. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to speed sir.

Not let off.... fine cancelled as applied incorrectly... but keeping it on theme... I rest my case.

 

[Scruffy]

I was cought on a 70 dual carriageway doing 70 in my Vito dual liner (Kimbi) I had 1 row of rear seats and factory fitted windows and seat belts. I used the above argument dual purpose vehicle and the fact I carry cargo up to 1 ton is incidental. The fine was over turned and I got let off. I kept the letter in case it happened again. I understand DVLA updated the details held as upon arriving at tolls I pay as a car. However the Vito Swb weight limit was blooming close but my T6 Highline T32 204 Dsg Kombi on order is definitely over the weight for trying the dual purpose argument. Ignorance of the law is no excuse to speed sir.

I don't get it. Are you saying you got away with it because the Vito's unladen weight was within the rules? Or the dual purpose vehicle argument? Or are they the same thing?

Confused!

 

[Gadgets]

I don't get it. Are you saying you got away with it because the Vito's unladen weight was within the rules? Or the dual purpose vehicle argument? Or are they the same thing?

Confused!

The Vito is just under the weight limit and does carry the one ton cargo that we all know about.
I had to send in a photo showing the rear seats, windows, seat belts and number plate. This was factory fitted which was the get out of jail card.

My T6 t32 204 kombi LWB is over the weight limit so I can't get around the above like I did with the Vito.

If a mobile or fixed camera gets ya its to do with what the dvla has the vehicle down as on the V5. Camper van motor home mini bus would get away with it. A panel van is a van so no chance but the lightest swb basic kombi has a chance if your prepared to put up the argument if you get a camera speed ticket. A police patrol car may turn a blind eye but it's up to the police officer or not to pull you over.
Like I say I used the argument with my Vito to its Unladed weight, that its dual purpose and V5 said dual liner not panel van. it had factory seats and windows and that I pay Severn bridge toll as a car if seats are in it. I was probably lucky to get the fine cancelled but will be using the speed limiter on the T6. If the V5 said panel van or van I. Would have had 6 points for doing 70 in a 60 vehicle classification. 10 miles over the limit 3 points and then 3 points for the classification of the vehicle plus the £100 fine. I fought my case as six points was worrying to say the least.

 

[Thogg]

The Vito is just under the weight limit and does carry the one ton cargo that we all know about.
I had to send in a photo showing the rear seats, windows, seat belts and number plate. This was factory fitted which was the get out of jail card.

My T6 t32 204 kombi LWB is over the weight limit so I can't get around the above like I did with the Vito.

If a mobile or fixed camera gets ya its to do with what the dvla has the vehicle down as on the V5. Camper van motor home mini bus would get away with it. A panel van is a van so no chance but the lightest swb basic kombi has a chance if your prepared to put up the argument if you get a camera speed ticket. A police patrol car may turn a blind eye but it's up to the police officer or not to pull you over.
Like I say I used the argument with my Vito to its Unladed weight, that its dual purpose and V5 said dual liner not panel van. it had factory seats and windows and that I pay Severn bridge toll as a car if seats are in it. I was probably lucky to get the fine cancelled but will be using the speed limiter on the T6. If the V5 said panel van or van I. Would have had 6 points for doing 70 in a 60 vehicle classification. 10 miles over the limit 3 points and then 3 points for the classification of the vehicle plus the £100 fine. I fought my case as six points was worrying to say the least.

6 points is harsh! That's two bites of the cherry right there. Offence one is exceed speed limit offence two is exceed speed limit for your class of vehicle. At 70 there was only ever one offence... for your class of vehicle.. except it wasn't because its dual use!
I dread to think how many people have paid the fine for fear of court on this.
You are spot on regarding the weights though. Anything over 2170 by The VW book is going to struggle. (As stated before VW include 75kg for the driver and assume 90%laden with fuel)
People could do a lot worse than stopping at a weighbridge, paying the small fee and getting their vehicle properly weighed. After all. Knowledge is power... don't forget to have a not far off empty tank and remember to get out when they are weighing it!!