2017 204PS BiTDi - Seized turbo!

[Dellmassive]

From earlier.....

Does the turbo use the engine oil for lubrication? I'm pretty good at regular oil changes with high quality oil. With the oil use in my van, I have to be very diligent with checking oil. (Meanwhile my smug 2005 Golf sits next to the T6 on the drive... having never used a drop of oil...

Yes the turbos use the engine oil as lubricant.

Turbos spin so fast that Normal bearings don't work, they would just overheat.

So they use a constant thin film of oil as a floating bearing as well as cooling it. The oil is fed directly from the engine block via the engine oil pump.

So yes they use engine oil.

And poor oil changes or oil quality can be bad news to turbo chargers.

Not saying that's a thing on yours.

You mentioned a vacuum leak.....the turbo uses vacuum lines.

You also mentioned odd turbo sounds.....

So... It's unknown ATM what's caused the turbo failure...... But will be interesting to follow your case.

 

[Dellmassive]

Looking as the 204ps diagram if the exhaust flap control system (15,16 &17) failed the small turbo would overspeed.
Would there be any faults logged?

View attachment 191924

That bypass valve and control gear 15,16,17 is vacume controled.

He mentioned a vacuum leak before..?


....


The OP mentioned flashing coil light etc... So the ECM will have flagged codes for unexpected turbo pressures.


Either high or low.

Don't know if we had a report or code scan?

@RunDSG any chance of a set of fault codes after the original failure?

.

 

[RunDSG]

I have the same engine but 2016 eu5. Sorry I don’t know any technical details that might help in your case but feel for you. I would be gutted if/when it happens to mine.
The phrase that sticks out to me in your OP is ‘drive it like a granny’. I firmly believe in regular oil changes and also using the engine in its full range routinely.
This doesn’t mean. Thrashing it!!
When the engine is fully warm accelerating gently to the red line occasionally will do it good. Burn off the carbon and soot and properly bed all the seals and engine parts.
Run it slightly higher revs on occasion.
Switch the display to oil temp and make sure it is properly warmed up.
I also never start the van up for very short trips to the shops if I can avoid it. I take a bike instead. Short trips are diesel engine killers. IMHO

All good advice. I do open it up occasionally, just wanted to make clear that I don't drive my van excessively hard. Certainly avoid short journeys and watch the DPF for soot levels and regen, using Carista. Cheers.

 

[RunDSG]

That bypass valve and control gear 15,16,17 is vacume controled.

He mentioned a vacuum leak before..?

Yea, I asked the mechanic if the ruptured vacuum hose led to the turbo failure. He thought not, but this is an interesting insight.

 

[RunDSG]

Don't know if we had a report or code scan?

@RunDSG any chance of a set of fault codes after the original failure?

Yea, this is what Carista said. Cleared the faults and the last two engine fault codes didn't return.

Oh, my fault codes according to Carista.

P0299 (Pending) - Turbocharger/Supercharger "A" underboost condition

Vehicle specific fault codes for the engine:
23957
25958
33262
31103

Thanks in advance for wisdom and advice.

 

[RunDSG]

I expect it's too far to come, however I have a local independent in Hitchin, North Herts, which I would recommend: Auto Service & Tuning Centre.

I wish it were closer. I don't think I can now drive the van anywhere, but then again if they quoted a far better price, I could pay for the transport.

 

[Dellmassive]

This was the post from TS mentioning the turbo.

Tale of woe

A couple of people asked recently why I seemed to have gone quiet lately. Well, I haven't actually gone quiet, I've just had a catalogue of issues with my T6 recently, which sadly still aren't quite resolved. This all started with a cracked exhaust manifold, which we removed and went to order...

www.t6forum.com

.

 

[Tourershine]

@Tourershine Can I ask where you sourced your replacement turbo? If I recall correctly, you fitted it yourself? How has it turned out?

Sorry, I've been away.

My replacement turbo was supplied by Turbo Diesel London, who specialise in rebuilt turbos and I only went that route because Volkswagen quoted a 12 week lead time and as a work van, that wasn't suitable.

However, and I say that word very loudly.
I would strongly advise against buying a used or so called 'rebuilt' turbo for the bi-turbo, because mine had to come back off 2 more times to fix faults with the turbo that was meant to be 'rebuilt' and each time this happened, it cost me a day and a half in Labour rates, and more down time for the van. If I ever had this issue again, I'd only fit genuine and new, personally.

The van was finally sorted but by then I'd lost all confidence in her and sadly had no option but to change it for a new one.
Mine had done 145k and also Revo mapped, but my map had was installed for 80k, so I'm not blaming the mapping. From general research, I found that many turbos have a life of around 125k, even if meticulously maintained, so I kind of put this down to a wear and tear item, only I went right around the houses to fix mine, when I should of just hired a van and sucked up the lead time from Volkswagen. I may still have the van now if I'd of done that.

 

[RunDSG]

Sorry, I've been away.

My replacement turbo was supplied by Turbo Diesel London, who specialise in rebuilt turbos and I only went that route because Volkswagen quoted a 12 week lead time and as a work van, that wasn't suitable.

However, and I say that word very loudly.
I would strongly advise against buying a used or so called 'rebuilt' turbo for the bi-turbo, because mine had to come back off 2 more times to fix faults with the turbo that was meant to be 'rebuilt' and each time this happened, it cost me a day and a half in Labour rates, and more down time for the van. If I ever had this issue again, I'd only fit genuine and new, personally.

The van was finally sorted but by then I'd lost all confidence in her and sadly had no option but to change it for a new one.
Mine had done 145k and also Revo mapped, but my map had was installed for 80k, so I'm not blaming the mapping. From general research, I found that many turbos have a life of around 125k, even if meticulously maintained, so I kind of put this down to a wear and tear item, only I went right around the houses to fix mine, when I should of just hired a van and sucked up the lead time from Volkswagen. I may still have the van now if I'd of done that.

Thanks. That's really useful feedback.

I called TPS today who quoted me about £2500 for the full turbo and related bits (about £1400 for the small turbo alone). Interestingly, They also said the turbo has had FIVE supersessions! This can be interpreted different ways, but there's a strong possibility VW is aware of issues with these turbos and has been trying to resolve it. Five supersessions on a five year old part?

Spoke to the garage. I've asked them to investigate a few things based on the feedback and advice I've heard here. Very much appreciated, all.

There's 10% different in price between the quote rebuilt turbo compared to the new one. I'll certainly be going with the new one, based both on @Tourershine 's advice and with the hopes that the issue with the original is now resolved/improved.

It seems the garage isn't equipped to inspect the small turbo to diagnose the cause. They'll have to send it to the turbo refurb company for that. Waiting on a quote.

I have a few questions you all might help me understand:

1. Is it possible that my oil usage issue is related to a failing turbo? Could I reasonably hope that a new turbo could resolve this? The oil usage seems directly related to start/stop urban driving, which would rely more on turbos than motorway driving.

2. The garage started by fixing a ruptured vacuum hose. They said that resolve much of the power loss but it still wasn't quite right. They then discovered the seized small turbo. Is it possible I've been driving the van with a seized small turbo for an extended period? If so... maybe the new turbo is going to blow my mind.

3. Could the turbo failure cause the exhaust system to burn up loads of add blue? My van has burned 4000 miles of add blue over about 100 miles when this failure occurred. I'm hoping there isn't a separate fault.

Thanks again for chipping in with your knowledge and experience. Looking forward to getting my van back... I'll keep you all updated.

 

[DXX]

I called TPS today who quoted me about £2500 for the full turbo and related bits (about £1400 for the small turbo alone). Interestingly

I thought VW only supplied a complete bi-turbo assembly?

2. The garage started by fixing a ruptured vacuum hose. They said that resolve much of the power loss but it still wasn't quite right. They then discovered the seized small turbo. Is it possible I've been driving the van with a seized small turbo for an extended period? If so... maybe the new turbo is going to blow my mind.

Like I mentioned earlier in post #20:

Looking at the 204ps diagram if the exhaust flap control system (15,16 &17) failed the small turbo would overspeed.
Would there be any faults logged?

There are many questions, the mechanic who is doing the job will hopefully cover all of the precautionary measures and not simply replace damaged components.
You need to be sure that the bores and pistons/rings are serviceable.
Oil feeds and drains are purged, sump removed, oil pickup screen and crankcase flushed out.
Maybe a random check of a few bearings for scoring while the sumps off.

If I were you I would get a plan with the quote, the repair won’t be cheap but re-work through poor planning could make it worse.

 

[Pauly]

VW say upto ( 1l of oil per 1k ) EDIT: for CXEB 0.5L per 1000km miles is acceptable (the limit of acceptable) but i think thats crazy, if mine was using half or even a quarter of that i would be concerned

Its possible (and fingers crossed it is) the turbo is the cause for high oil usage but theres plenty of other possibilities also !

 

[Tourershine]

1. Is it possible that my oil usage issue is related to a failing turbo? Could I reasonably hope that a new turbo could resolve this? The oil usage seems directly related to start/stop urban driving, which would rely more on turbos than motorway driving.

2. The garage started by fixing a ruptured vacuum hose. They said that resolve much of the power loss but it still wasn't quite right. They then discovered the seized small turbo. Is it possible I've been driving the van with a seized small turbo for an extended period? If so... maybe the new turbo is going to blow my mind.

3. Could the turbo failure cause the exhaust system to burn up loads of add blue? My van has burned 4000 miles of add blue over about 100 miles when this failure occurred. I'm hoping there isn't a separate fault.

Thanks again for chipping in with your knowledge and experience. Looking forward to getting my van back... I'll keep you all updated.

1. The instant my turbo failed, it threw on the engine management light, and I'd think even if the smaller turbo had failed, the light would of come on straight away. As for oil consumption, mine was 1lt per 10k, but that did increase quite drastically the higher the mileage my van got, to a point it seemed I was topping up oil, more than Adblue.

2. Mine also started off with vacuum hose failures, but this also threw on the light instantly, and I think you'd know if the van was underperforming due to a seized turbo, because surely it would be gutless to a point you'd know there was an issue?

3. Another point to note: Once the turbo had failed, this blocked my DPF absolutely solid from hot oil. Just above the DPF from memory, the adblue injector is screwed in. I wonder if it's worth inspecting this, incase it's been damaged and allowing too much adblue to be injected (if that's how it works) That's all I can think with that amount of fluid used. You'd know if it was a leak because the whole underside of the van would be White as mine was when I split my adblue tank due to being so low.


Lastly, to save your garage hours of investigating.
Once mine was finally fixed, I had plumes of Black smoke every time the throttle was touched and it definitely didn't have that before the turbo blew. It transpired that the Revo map was causing this and we could only put it down to the map not being set up to the new turbo, but the instant we removed the map, the Black smoke vanished. Revo did offer to replace the map with a new one, but by this time I'd already decided to remove all modifications.

 

[GetGet]

I expect it's too far to come, however I have a local independent in Hitchin, North Herts, which I would recommend: Auto Service & Tuning Centre.

Interested to hear more about this garage I’m over the way Cambridgeshire.

 

[RunDSG]

Update:

The garage has had my van for about a month now. Lots of discussion about diagnosing the issue and possible courses of action. Things are finally getting somewhere.

Brand new turbo from TPS fitted this week, to the tune of £2500 (part incl VAT). I've picked up the van today to review the work on the turbo. I've ended up helping out with the diagnostic of the AdBlue fault.

Really interesting experience. With the new turbo fitted, the MFD still displayed an AdBlue error (hopefully triggered by the turbo failure and not an actual fault with the AdBlue pump or injector), with a countdown before the engine would no longer run! This AdBlue message was orange, with a spanner, distinguishing it from a refill message.

VW have a very specific set of instructions for resetting this error, and telling the system to reset and re-diagnose. On the fifth attempt, I managed to pull it off! (6th gear, 2100 RPM for 2 miles, then 1900 RPM for 2 seconds, then 1500 RPM for 5 seconds - it's like an arcade cheat code from the 80s!) The orange message is now gone, no EML thankfully, but a engine fault code of 32110. I can't find out much about this code, but there's some indication that it might be DPF related. Carisa has soot level at 6.5g, which suggests no concern.

Back to the garage tomorrow. They're expecting VCDS to add clarity to the remaining fault code.

On the faulty turbo, loads of black smoke. I'm still getting a small amount of black smoke with the new turbo. Is this normal on a 2017 biturbo? Should I look to remove the remap? Or does the system just need time to bed in the new turbo and adjust?

I'm hoping to sell the old turbo, which has just the small turbo seized. Will a refurbisher give me a couple hundred quid? Given they refurb and sell on for £1300?

 

[DaveD]

Update:

The garage has had my van for about a month now. Lots of discussion about diagnosing the issue and possible courses of action. Things are finally getting somewhere.

Brand new turbo from TPS fitted this week, to the tune of £2500 (part incl VAT). I've picked up the van today to review the work on the turbo. I've ended up helping out with the diagnostic of the AdBlue fault.

Really interesting experience. With the new turbo fitted, the MFD still displayed an AdBlue error (hopefully triggered by the turbo failure and not an actual fault with the AdBlue pump or injector), with a countdown before the engine would no longer run! This AdBlue message was orange, with a spanner, distinguishing it from a refill message.

VW have a very specific set of instructions for resetting this error, and telling the system to reset and re-diagnose. On the fifth attempt, I managed to pull it off! (6th gear, 2100 RPM for 2 miles, then 1900 RPM for 2 seconds, then 1500 RPM for 5 seconds - it's like an arcade cheat code from the 80s!) The orange message is now gone, no EML thankfully, but a engine fault code of 32110. I can't find out much about this code, but there's some indication that it might be DPF related. Carisa has soot level at 6.5g, which suggests no concern.

Back to the garage tomorrow. They're expecting VCDS to add clarity to the remaining fault code.

On the faulty turbo, loads of black smoke. I'm still getting a small amount of black smoke with the new turbo. Is this normal on a 2017 biturbo? Should I look to remove the remap? Or does the system just need time to bed in the new turbo and adjust?

I'm hoping to sell the old turbo, which has just the small turbo seized. Will a refurbisher give me a couple hundred quid? Given they refurb and sell on for £1300?

One other thread that I can find on here mentions fault code 32110, I'm not sure it helps you at all, but it does suggest a DPF related fault, as you already suspect.
Engine codes and DPF.

 

[Dellmassive]

I would definitely remove the map.

Go back to stock.

The 204 has more than enough power on the stock map.

TS done the same, removed the map.

 

[Dellmassive]

Remember your first post saying £3k price was nuts.

Lol .

So new bi turbo £2.5k

What's the rough labour charge with all this?

You planning on keeping the van now, or selling on?

 

[Dellmassive]

Hopefully you don't have a damaged DPF like TS did.

Hopefully your small turbo seized solid blocking any engine oil from getting into the exhaust system..

Not sure about any black smoke, there shouldn't be any.

But removing the map may answer that question.

I also remember from somewhere about a default re calibration on a new turbo on VCDS?.... Was that from TS post?

 

[RunDSG]

Remember your first post saying £3k price was nuts.

Lol .

So new bi turbo £2.5k

What's the rough labour charge with all this?

You planning on keeping the van now, or selling on?

Yea, £2.5k for the turbo matches the trade price given to me by TPS when I called them. Labour charge will be in the ballpark of £700. Bloody hard to get to the turbo; even though it can be seen at the back of the engine in the engine bay, it has to be removed from underneath.

Definitely keeping my van.

… just hoping I can get back to a place where I fully trust its reliability.

 

[RunDSG]

Hopefully you don't have a damaged DPF like TS did.

Hopefully your small turbo seized solid blocking any engine oil from getting into the exhaust system..

Not sure about any black smoke, there shouldn't be any.

But removing the map may answer that question.

I also remember from somewhere about a default re calibration on a new turbo on VCDS?.... Was that from TS post?

I'm hoping the low soot levels reported in Carista is an indication that the DPF is fine. It was the same company (though different location) that loaded the map, so I’ll dig into this.

These guys seem pretty clued in re: VCDS, so I would hope they would have a recalibration if required. I’ll ask this morning when I ring them.