Are EVs the way forward?

[DaveD]

CO2 levels are not the only reason for moving away from ICE powered vehicles. Particulates in the atmosphere are very damaging to health, especially in urban areas, causing cancer and other respiratory issues.. Petroleum (and Hydrogen) are very inefficient sources of energy and using fossil fuels is diminishing a limited resource.

Particulates are also given off by tyres and brake friction surfaces of ALL vehicles.

Brake pad pollution as bad as that from diesel exhaust

A team of scientists, led by Kings College London, say particulate pollution from brake wear could be contributing to increased susceptibility to airway infections.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

Edit;
From the article;

"Dr Ian Mudway, senior lecturer at the School of Population Health and Environmental Sciences who led the research, said: “At this time the focus on diesel exhaust emissions is completely justified by the scientific literature, but we should not forget, or discount, the importance of other components, such as metals from mechanical abrasion, especially from brakes.

“There is no such thing as a zero-emission vehicle, and as regulations to reduced exhaust emissions kick in, the contribution from these sources are likely to become more significant.”

It is estimated that only 7% of PM2.5 pollution from traffic comes from tailpipe exhaust fumes at roadside sites – the rest comes from sources such as tyre, clutch and brake wear, as well as the resuspension of road dust."

 

[Sasquatch]

Particulates are also given off by tyres and brake friction surfaces of ALL vehicles.

Brake pad pollution as bad as that from diesel exhaust

A team of scientists, led by Kings College London, say particulate pollution from brake wear could be contributing to increased susceptibility to airway infections.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

But not from the exhausts of electric cars, where the warm gasses (including injurious oxides of nitrogen) not only lifts them higher into the air where people's heads are, but keeps them there for longer.

In terms of exhaust emissions it is, for one very obvious reason, like comparing apples and pears.

 

[DaveD]

But not from the exhausts of electric cars, where the warm gasses (including injurious oxides of nitrogen) not only lifts them higher into the air where people's heads are, but keeps them there for longer.

In terms of exhaust emissions it is, for one very obvious reason, like comparing apples and pears.

EV's cause particle emissions too, wrap that up however you like, I'm sorry to have triggered you.

 

[Lubrown]

EV's cause particle emissions too, wrap that up however you like, I'm sorry to have triggered you.

Nobody is saying they don’t.

But if we think for more than a nano second we can see you’re comparing a vehicle with three emissions types at a local level to a vehicle with two emission types at a local level.

 

[Sasquatch]

EV's cause particle emissions too, wrap that up however you like, I'm sorry to have triggered you.

Of course they do. No one here is suggesting otherwise. My bicycle does.

But no tailpipe, so a major source of emissions eliminated. I don't think the most hard-core sceptic would struggle with the simple maths involved of three into two.

And then there's secondary emissions. No one is driving a huge tanker full of electrons, itself creating significant tailpipe, brake and tyre particulates and noxious exhaust gasses, to the electron station for electric car drivers to fill up their tanks. The comparison can be extended way back to the hole in the ground/seabed, and at each trophic level the ICE car compares considerably worse for emissions.

Hell, even burning coal - which the UK no longer does - and zapping it does power lines to electric cars is, mile for mile, thermally more efficient, and thus less polluting in all respects, than getting 50+ litres of explosive fossil fuel to a cars tank then then burning it in situ. Those of us with degrees in physics or related fields - my postgrad is in space technology and engineering and I majored in fuels for propulsion systems - can do the maths first hand.

 

[The Flying Scotsman]

Not to mention the fact that humans are responsible for 60 times the carbon emissions annually of volcanic activity...

Which emits more carbon dioxide: volcanoes or human activities?

Human activities emit 60 or more times the amount of carbon dioxide released by volcanoes each year.

www.climate.gov

The link is from NOAA, who arguably know more about the subject of anthropomorphic climate change than any other organisation ion the planet. The assertion that volcanoes are the villain here is simply apocryphal.

I’m fed up having to explain this again.
Who said anything about volcanoes being the villain??
My point which seems to have gone over a few of your heads was about comparing how much CO2 the UK yes the UK you know the place most of us in this discussion live including “people like me” to the amount of CO2 expelled naturally by a volcano !
Trying to show that the UKs efforts to actually reduce the harm on the planet is in vain. Just a drop in the ocean compared to the harm humans are causing elsewhere.
I’ve never once blamed volcanoes for anything. Or not recognised that humans are damaging the earth or that EVs produce less pollution.
Well at least when they are on the road. Totally discounting the massive pollution created in their construction.

 

[Lubrown]

Well at least when they are on the road. Totally discounting the massive pollution created in their construction.

Once an ICE powered car has travelled 15k miles its carbon footprint overtakes that of an EV (including manufacturing). Gives you a thought for the ongoing pollution where many ICEs will get at least 100k miles in a lifetime.

Not saying we all stop driving ICE but EVs are part of the future, whether volcanos like it or not

 

[Salty Spuds]

I’ve resisted joining this discussion so far, and I’m probably going to regret doing so, but hey ho here goes. Could you well informed people, including the rocket scientist, please explain to a mere simple chap like myself “where did the ice go?” I’m currently sat at the side of Ullswater, 10000 years ago there would have been 500m of ice on my head. What happened to it?

 

[The Flying Scotsman]

I’ve resisted joining this discussion so far, and I’m probably going to regret doing so, but hey ho here goes. Could you well informed people, including the rocket scientist, please explain to a mere simple chap like myself “where did the ice go?” I’m currently sat at the side of Ullswater, 10000 years ago there would have been 500m of ice on my head. What happened to it?

Just the same thing that’s happened to most of the ice that killed the dinosaurs.

Interesting fact. Just googled how many ice ages there have been.
And if we are measuring temperatures after or during an ice age.
What is the natural evolution of the earth’s temperature?
I’m not saying humans aren’t polluting the planet or having an effect on the environment or temperatures.
But does make you wonder how much humans are responsible for the temperature increase at least.

 

[Lubrown]

I’m not saying humans aren’t polluting the planet or having an effect on the environment or temperatures.
But does make you wonder how much humans are responsible for the temperature increase at least.

If we know we’re having a negative effect (which we do) and we know how to reduce that (which we do) then we ought to do so.
Making that effort fair and achievable for the masses is the bit we aren’t getting right fast enough and the industry causing the most harm here is spending our money delaying things. They may not be the sole delaying factor but, never the less, it’s a bad attitude they have and it adds to the imbalances in the world.

 

[Sasquatch]

Indeed.

People don't seem willing or able to drive less.

So what's a viable alternative? Cake and eat it simply isn't going to be possible moving forward.

 

[drinfinity]

I’ve resisted joining this discussion so far, and I’m probably going to regret doing so, but hey ho here goes. Could you well informed people, including the rocket scientist, please explain to a mere simple chap like myself “where did the ice go?” I’m currently sat at the side of Ullswater, 10000 years ago there would have been 500m of ice on my head. What happened to it?

It melted when the climate warmed. From about 18000 to 12000 years ago or thereabouts. Which is a bit more slowly than currently.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10915.epdf?sharing_token=Z9DV4Uws1MrzIk_2_niIiNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OKJnkv74AGCoyUL672-Tzx8IE8DrDelqhC97Zvh_7LVrhCxd8zdScV63bQFBAH1w9YTerbniStBJr0fs85WQA4KpTtelmLIeos57YNNF60JaCOJUv2bV-7qq-OCGg7hx4PH0-Ds0p3BmngDpvqMhKl2syMicrvjJa0ckiSrV4kF6d7iMMRnpdxAyZHM-D0wyU%3D&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Salty Spuds]

It melted when the climate warmed. From about 18000 to 12000 years ago or thereabouts. Which is a bit more slowly than currently.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature10915.epdf?sharing_token=Z9DV4Uws1MrzIk_2_niIiNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OKJnkv74AGCoyUL672-Tzx8IE8DrDelqhC97Zvh_7LVrhCxd8zdScV63bQFBAH1w9YTerbniStBJr0fs85WQA4KpTtelmLIeos57YNNF60JaCOJUv2bV-7qq-OCGg7hx4PH0-Ds0p3BmngDpvqMhKl2syMicrvjJa0ckiSrV4kF6d7iMMRnpdxAyZHM-D0wyU%3D&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

So it melted due to climate change?

 

[drinfinity]

So it melted due to climate change?

Yes. Over thousands of years. Lots more data at the paper I linked in Nature.

 

[Salty Spuds]

Yes. Over thousands of years. Lots more data at the paper I linked in Nature.

In geological time, thousands of years was just before tea time. So the climate changed rather quickly over the last 12000 years or so.

 

[drinfinity]

In geological time, thousands of years was just before tea time. So the climate changed rather quickly over the last 12000 years or so.

Yes. And 12000 >> 100.

 

[Sasquatch]

I’ve resisted joining this discussion so far, and I’m probably going to regret doing so, but hey ho here goes. Could you well informed people, including the rocket scientist, please explain to a mere simple chap like myself “where did the ice go?” I’m currently sat at the side of Ullswater, 10000 years ago there would have been 500m of ice on my head. What happened to it?

Geomorphology isn't really my thing, but as I understand it ice sheets overtop land melt, retreat, gone on holiday, ends up ultimately in the sea or atmosphere.

The land is then relieved of the massive weight of the ice and the land itself rises.

I think the issue now is that most of the land we live on is ice free and will no longer rise at it did before, so as sea levels rise relative to the land we eventually cop it.

It's also not appreciated that much sea level rise is due to the thermal expansion of seawater in addition to ice melt. The water expands, the greater volume has only to go.

Oh, and I'm a trained engineer, not a scientist, albeit I've never had a single days employment as either. Scientists dream of doing things, engineers go and do them. Some engineers would be quite insulted to be called a scientist.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Particulates are also given off by tyres and brake friction surfaces of ALL vehicles.

Brake pad pollution as bad as that from diesel exhaust

A team of scientists, led by Kings College London, say particulate pollution from brake wear could be contributing to increased susceptibility to airway infections.

www.fleetnews.co.uk

Edit;
From the article;

"Dr Ian Mudway, senior lecturer at the School of Population Health and Environmental Sciences who led the research, said: “At this time the focus on diesel exhaust emissions is completely justified by the scientific literature, but we should not forget, or discount, the importance of other components, such as metals from mechanical abrasion, especially from brakes.

“There is no such thing as a zero-emission vehicle, and as regulations to reduced exhaust emissions kick in, the contribution from these sources are likely to become more significant.”

It is estimated that only 7% of PM2.5 pollution from traffic comes from tailpipe exhaust fumes at roadside sites – the rest comes from sources such as tyre, clutch and brake wear, as well as the resuspension of road dust."

Particles from brake pads are reduced with EVs as increasingly they use the motors to regenerate electricity from the kinetic energy of the vehicles, unlike ICE vehicles that use friction brakes to slow the vehicles down. In other words, EVs reduce the pollution produced, not only by reducing tailpipe emissions, but also be reducing particulate emissions from friction linings in brake and clutch components.

Want to start talking about lubricating oils, spark plugs, air filters, drive belts and the waste from them in ICE vehicles compared to EVs?

 

[Sackmycook]

I had to laugh the other day when BMW service guys played the 'scored discs' card when also mentioning the pads were at 70% on my i3s. These are the original pads, 47k miles old, originals.

 

[Scruffy]

Have any of you watched Earth on the BBC? Currently on the iPlayer, and an excellent programme and would help some what in regards to time and Geological periods of time. Each major sequence is followed by a shift in time and these are over millions of years, quite mind boggling.

Now to bring us back to today. Almost 24 years ago to the day ( it was my birthday) I drove into Chamonix in the Alps, and as you look to your right from the motorway towards Mont Blanc, you can see two glaciers, so close, you feel you could reach out and touch them. Earlier this year, I was on the same stretch of motorway and those same glaciers have receded up the mountain so far, you can barely see them.

The irony being, the scene was viewed from my Transporter, but could have been seen from my mates Tesla ( who was on the same trip) but he was 4 hours behind us due to charging issues.