Legal advice needed! Speeding in a converted N1

[Salty Spuds]

I couldn’t agree more, I’m stumped as to why they won’t drop it.

Simple, they want to bully you into paying up. It's a case of who blinks first. There's a drone sat in an office churning these out day after day, it matters not 2 jots to him/her/them if you argue or not. They will have a list of stock answers to every excuse on the planet. The only way to beat this is either elevate it to someone who is answerable, or go to court. In my case I emailed, wrote (recorded delivery), telephoned and actually spoke to someone. All I got was pay up or go to court, absolutely no-one was willing to listen or take ownership.

 

[Ali-G]

Luckily the prisons are full of more serious criminals, like the bloke who threw a push bike at a hotel door so you should be safe.

 

[moomin-j]

Is the DVLA letter the one someone posted on a different chat in the pic? Shit pic sorry! Or is there something more official on the web I’ve missed?

View attachment 259796

@GHind :

A bit of a better copy, that was sent to me to clarify that my "panel van with windows" can do car speeds, that refers also to Mr Taylors letter in your post:



This is her contact details / direct email address:

 

[JOG]

Mine was converted from new prior to registration by a VCA approved converter so is motorcaravan registered anyway, but you never know when the untrained civilian legal geniuses at the local dibble prosecutions will have a mind fart and try to bend me over anyway.

Hang on! There’s a correlation between having a mind fart and bending me over…..I can assure you that I’ve met some who tried to bend me over without a mind fart! (One slight issue was that they soon discovered they’d run into a smartarse of an Irishman who ran rings around them!!!)

I remain virgo intacto in the bottom department!!!

 

[Lubrown]

Will do I have written on several occasions and like others on here modified and old letter explaining why it’s DPV and upper speed limits but I keep getting the same response back so I’ll try magistrates and keep you posted

View attachment 259767

Assuming that at present your van is registered as a LGV then there is nothing technically wrong with the wording of the camera units email is there?
They can’t alter your registration documents- only the DVLA can and the camera unit/Police can only go on the legal documents they are provided by the DVLA for this.

I see this but as one of those daft situations of different departments doing different bits.

 

[Sasquatch]

What the DVLA say on a V5 is irrelevant and the dibble are making the mistake of giving it credence

The law, specifically Schedule 6 of The Road Traffic Act, determines the speed limits for each type (not 'class') of vehicle, not the DVLA.

 

[Rslad]

Ah, with you. Indeed, same argument applies under schedule 6 R.T.A. anyway.

When this is all over you need a small black rat sticker next to the number plate

Good old London traffic police

 

[GHind]

@GHind :

A bit of a better copy, that was sent to me to clarify that my "panel van with windows" can do car speeds, that refers also to Mr Taylors letter in your post:

View attachment 259858

This is her contact details / direct email address:

View attachment 259859

Fantastic thank you

 

[Sasquatch]

Please keep us updated so we can cheer you on.

 

[jimc91]

Are you with the AA or RAC or do you have legal cover with your insurance as they will give you legal representation

 

[Bigsidavies]

In the news today:



It is happening everywhere - CPS backed down at point of court - again they obviously have not read the case file before!


Link Derby pensioner who fought M1 speeding penalty cleared

Thing is that it’s still in the hands of the Welsh equivalent of the central ticket office. I presume staffed entirely by civilians with no discretion or particular traffic knowledge.
It won’t go anywhere near the CPS until a court hearing is elected and a summons is issued or whatever they do these days for NIP offences.
The CPS pretty much never read anything until the morning of the case, even when you ring them up and specifically ask about a case even as a cop involved in the case. So you’re going to have to go so far along this road before a grown up has a chance to make a decision on everything you’ve sent them.

 

[Sasquatch]

Unless its a complex or serious case the CPS prosecutor is lucky to even see the file before the day of Court, much less actaully read it.

When this is done and you win (which I am confident you will) and have had costs awarded, make sure lodge a complaint with the farces Professional Standards department. There's either incompetence or a criminally poor level of training at play here, and either scenario requires a swift kick up the backside to get them to sit up and take notice in future. Annoy them and make them squirm a bit as they have you.

Also then write to the PCC, who is ultimately responsible for administering the organisations budget, and ask if progressing wrongful prosecutions at the public expense is a worthy or wise way to spend the forces precious budget, particularly at a time when theyre pelading poverty and demanding a greater settlement from central government. Trust me, in the dibble s**t rolls downholl very quickly and those that live in the valley will find themselves neck deep in it if you submit a justified complaint.

 

[EAN]

When at court, is the alleged speeding offence fixed at the prosecution for 12mph over a 50mph limit or is it possible for the prosecution to fall back to a prosecution of 2mph over a 60mph limit once their case falls apart and they have their trousers round their ankles and are feeling stupid? I know there is a 10% + 2mph prosecution guideline but it is just that, a guideline which can’t be used as a legal defence. Are they content to continue with such a prosecution regardless because they have a fall back position which would find you guilty anyway? I don’t know if it’s possible or not. Perhaps others with more knowledge can inform?
If it is a risk, then, in addition, I’d be thinking about how I defend against that: speed gun tolerance, calibration, road conditions, signage etc… etc as appropriate.

 

[Sasquatch]

The 10%+2 ACPO guideline has long fallen by the wayside, and not all forces universally adhered to it anyway.

When the prosecution are left holding their nadgers I think they'll simply bin it. To try for a 2mph infringement at that late stage without them properly preparing a prosecution on that basis or allowing the accused to prepared their defence accordingly is almost inconceivable.

 

[GHind]

I’m hopeful they’ll bin it as technically it’s a different prosecution and a long while after the alleged! Offence…….I've also asked for the calibration cert several times and haven’t had it as presumably they think it’s not required for 12 mph over. Anyway I’ve stopped asking and will mention I’ve asked for it on numerous occasions should they go down that route

 

[Rioja John]

I don’t know if this has been posted.

Dear Safety Camera Partnership team. My VW is a SWB T32 | was recently recorded going 72mph on the A30 in Cornwall. The
Notice of intended prosecution says EXCEEDED SPEED LIMIT CLASS OF VEHICLE. My vehicle meets the criteria for a dual purpose vehicle and therefore is subject to the
same speed limits as a normal car. You have issued a speeding notice based on "CLASS OF VEHICLE". Upon looking into this in some detail is appears that you have incorrectly thought my vehicle was restricted
to the lower speed limit set out for commercial Vans and similar vehicles. Based on that assumption your notice would be correct because the speed limit for such
a vehicle would be 60mph on this carriage way, as you have stated on your Notice. However you may not be aware that my vehicle is in fact a factory standard - "Dual Purpose Vehicle"- and as such is subject to the higher limit of normal road cars and
therefore the speed limit for my vehicle on this carriage way would be 70mph. For the avoidance of any doubt the Road Traffic act 1986 clearly states that a Dual Purpose Vehicle is determined by the following definition regardless of the stated class on the V5. The category N1 is not relevant. Please see extract below from government
legislation:-
Road Traffic act 1986 Legislation
Dual Purpose Vehicle :- a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or
burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed
2040 kg be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the
vehicle; and be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on
each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear;
So with regard to my VW transporter -
It is called a "VW Transporter KOMBI" - KOMBI = Combination vehicle or Dual Purpose
Vehicle.
Body type on the V5 is "VAN/SIDE WINDOWS" The unladen weight on the v5 is known as the "Mass in service" it is 2134 kg - however you must deduct the weight of fuel (90% of a tank) and a driver as set out below which
would make my van fall well below the limit of 2040kg - 90% tank of fuel weighs around

 

[Sasquatch]

I’m hopeful they’ll bin it as technically it’s a different prosecution and a long while after the alleged! Offence…….I've also asked for the calibration cert several times and haven’t had it as presumably they think it’s not required for 12 mph over. Anyway I’ve stopped asking and will mention I’ve asked for it on numerous occasions should they go down that route

There won't necessarily be one, depending on the type of device used. Some modern HO approved devices self calibrate and self report faults (I couldn't tell you which, I left RPU in 2002 before most of these devices came into service so my knowledge isnt directly acquired.)

However, on mobile or handheld gear they should also check its operation prior to beginning by having a colleague in a calibrated car drive past at a set speed. It's not law, but it's best practice and if they haven't done that you can further sow the seeds of doubt in court as to what other best practice they may or may not have followed. No magistrate likes a sloppy cop, although they equally love diligent ones that evidence everything in detail.

 

[Grim Reaper]

So my question regarding the above excerpt from the UKSI 1979/1092 is, in a Kombi, where the seats are removable, does this paragraph (b) (1) mean the Kombi doesn't satisfy the requirements?

 

[Sackmycook]

No, when fitted to the van via factory fitting mount points, it's permanent.

That piece of jargon is to stop people using deck chairs, ikea beds etc as seating and claiming dual purpose status

 

[ChrisBell]

I don’t know if this has been posted.

Dear Safety Camera Partnership team. My VW is a SWB T32 | was recently recorded going 72mph on the A30 in Cornwall. The
Notice of intended prosecution says EXCEEDED SPEED LIMIT CLASS OF VEHICLE. My vehicle meets the criteria for a dual purpose vehicle and therefore is subject to the
same speed limits as a normal car. You have issued a speeding notice based on "CLASS OF VEHICLE". Upon looking into this in some detail is appears that you have incorrectly thought my vehicle was restricted
to the lower speed limit set out for commercial Vans and similar vehicles. Based on that assumption your notice would be correct because the speed limit for such
a vehicle would be 60mph on this carriage way, as you have stated on your Notice. However you may not be aware that my vehicle is in fact a factory standard - "Dual Purpose Vehicle"- and as such is subject to the higher limit of normal road cars and
therefore the speed limit for my vehicle on this carriage way would be 70mph. For the avoidance of any doubt the Road Traffic act 1986 clearly states that a Dual Purpose Vehicle is determined by the following definition regardless of the stated class on the V5. The category N1 is not relevant. Please see extract below from government
legislation:-
Road Traffic act 1986 Legislation
Dual Purpose Vehicle :- a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or
burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed
2040 kg be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the
vehicle; and be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on
each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear;
So with regard to my VW transporter -
It is called a "VW Transporter KOMBI" - KOMBI = Combination vehicle or Dual Purpose
Vehicle.
Body type on the V5 is "VAN/SIDE WINDOWS" The unladen weight on the v5 is known as the "Mass in service" it is 2134 kg - however you must deduct the weight of fuel (90% of a tank) and a driver as set out below which
would make my van fall well below the limit of 2040kg - 90% tank of fuel weighs around

That's the one I used... Unsuccessfully made me want to go and look back at reply....I'll post it here if I can... Here it is...