Lithium LifePo4 12v Batteries - Time For An Upgrade?

[JetSetWilly]

Many thanks for all the comments, I'm inclined to go for the Roamer given the price and support (and they've taken time to respond previously in this thread).

I was hoping for a straight swap but reading this, it maybe not that easy?

You will need to change the black CBE mains charger as it doesn’t have a lithium profile (unless it’s a different model from the one I’m familiar with). That should be fairly easy as you can tap into the existing cables for it. I’m assuming the installer has also correctly disabled or bypassed the charger relay in the CBE DS300 box when the Sterling was installed? That will either be the R37 resistor snipped (bottom left) or switched off (some versions have a switch) or nothing connected to the B1 positive connector (bottom right).

You reckon this needs replacing as well? I've read some people have used the CBE CB 516 with lithium but not the CBE CB 516 version 3 which has a desulphate mode?
If I do have to replace, any suggestions. TIA

 

[ginkster]

Many thanks for all the comments, I'm inclined to go for the Roamer given the price and support (and they've taken time to respond previously in this thread).

I was hoping for a straight swap but reading this, it maybe not that easy?

View attachment 265022View attachment 265023

You reckon this needs replacing as well? I've read some people have used the CBE CB 516 with lithium but not the CBE CB 516 version 3 which has a desulphate mode?
If I do have to replace, any suggestions. TIA

I replaced mine with a Victron ip65 as I didn’t want to cause any issues, plus I was going the full Victron route. In reality I’ve not even fitted it (cables in place ready) as I find the solar covers my needs. The whole point of going lifepo4 and solar for me was to be off-grid and it has totally freed me up from EHU. Makes finding camping spots/sites very flexible. I’d drop the battery manufacturer an email to see what they say about the charger.

Can you post a pic with the cover off the DS300 to see if that’s been sorted?

 

[JetSetWilly]

I replaced mine with a Victron ip65 as I didn’t want to cause any issues, plus I was going the full Victron route. In reality I’ve not even fitted it (cables in place ready) as I find the solar covers my needs. The whole point of going lifepo4 and solar for me was to be off-grid and it has totally freed me up from EHU. Makes finding camping spots/sites very flexible. I’d drop the battery manufacturer an email to see what they say about the charger.

Can you post a pic with the cover off the DS300 to see if that’s been sorted?

Any good? TIA

 

[ginkster]

View attachment 265076View attachment 265077
Any good? TIA

Well, something is connected to the B1 post so they have not bypassed the charger relay by the look of it. Can you get a pic of the resistor R37 down in the extreme bottom left to see if that’s been cut? If not, depending what’s attached to B1, the relay charger will also be charging the leisure battery. Looks like this:



Also, the positive cabling is rather odd depending on what you have in the van. The majority goes to the right hand plug whereas I’d expect to see more go to the left. The right hand plug is for fridge, step, solar and gas. The (poorly written) instruction manual for the DS300 is available here. There is also an instruction sheet on adding a DC-DC charger to the system here. I didn’t follow this as I wanted to keep the box intact in case I revert the van back to sell in the future, or remove the box and sell it. Instead I removed the engine start signal wire and have nothing connected to B1 so the charge relay doesn’t trigger and even if it did the starter battery isn’t connected to supply power from the alternator. The only downside is you lose the starter battery indicator on the control panel but that’s total crap anyhow.

 

[JetSetWilly]

I've emailed CBE asking if the CB 156 can be used with a Lithium battery so I'll await their response but I think it's looking unlikely.

I did visit my local auto electrics shop today to ask for their advice, but they haven't moved onto Lithium yet, too new for them (normal for Norfolk...)

 

[roadtripper]

I think I recall in a previous thread with this PDU and charger that one of the wires is simply used to light up an "EHU ON" indicator on the PSU control panel if you go down the replacement with a Victron charger route and find a similar extra wire than expected.

 

[ginkster]

I've emailed CBE asking if the CB 156 can be used with a Lithium battery so I'll await their response but I think it's looking unlikely.

I did visit my local auto electrics shop today to ask for their advice, but they haven't moved onto Lithium yet, too new for them (normal for Norfolk...)


View attachment 265133View attachment 265134

I’d recommend also emailing Fogstar and/or Roamer with the details of the charger to see what they say. I’d have thought they would give better advice than CBE.

The R37 resistor looks intact and something is connected to the B1 terminal so I’d want to be sure the relay isn’t also providing a charge. Hiwever, there is no engine running wire connected so that may well stop it charging depending how one reads the rubbish CBE instructions. If that’s the case then the other instructions I linked about adding a DC-DC seem pointless - who knows! I’m also intrigued why there are 2 connections to the B1 terminal as there should only be the one from the starter battery.

 

[JetSetWilly]

I’d recommend also emailing Fogstar and/or Roamer with the details of the charger to see what they say. I’d have thought they would give better advice than CBE.

The R37 resistor looks intact and something is connected to the B1 terminal so I’d want to be sure the relay isn’t also providing a charge. Hiwever, there is no engine running wire connected so that may well stop it charging depending how one reads the rubbish CBE instructions. If that’s the case then the other instructions I linked about adding a DC-DC seem pointless - who knows! I’m also intrigued why there are 2 connections to the B1 terminal as there should only be the one from the starter battery.

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

 

[ginkster]

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

Nice one, that’s a good result. I’d still checkout the DS300 to make sure the relay in that isn’t activating. You may be able to turn off or disconnect the Sterling and then run the engine to see if any charge is going to the LB. Maybe the converters can explain how they have set it up too?

 

[davecdjt]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

 

[Drive Wayne]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

Worth looking at Dave, you'll be very happy once you've got over the financial shock! I've always been good at spending other folks money! Forum Roamer discount don't forget!

 

[davecdjt]

Worth looking at Dave, you'll be very happy once you've got over the financial shock! I've always been good at spending other folks money! Forum Roamer discount don't forget!

If/when the AGM fails I’ll have to bite the bullet. Just now I’m considering getting an alternator charger to keep my EF River 2 pro charged up. The inverter was massive. There’s nowhere obvious to put one in my set up.

 

[Drive Wayne]

If/when the AGM fails I’ll have to bite the bullet. Just now I’m considering getting an alternator charger to keep my EF River 2 pro charged up. The inverter was massive. There’s nowhere obvious to put one in my set up.

@TallPaul_S has a suggestion for the invertor...

 

[Absolut5]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

Not the best advise, yes the Ctek will run a lithium, the only downside is they cannot wake one up if it’s flat.

What is your usage, how long off grid etc

Drop us a pm or call if you want to talk through some options

 

[davecdjt]

Not the best advise, yes the Ctek will run a lithium, the only downside is they cannot wake one up if it’s flat.

What is your usage, how long off grid etc

Drop us a pm or call if you want to talk through some options

Thanks @Absolut5. I will message you for a second opinion. I had in mind reaching out to you

 

[Bigsidavies]

CTEK 250se deffo has a lithium profile. Achieved by connecting the battery selector wire to SB live from memory. I use mine with my Renogy 100ah LiFePo. Only issue is that it’s only 20a charger.
It was a straight swap to LiFePo from AGM when I needed a new LB. Having the ease of a lithium is a no brainer as far as I’m concerned. It makes having a LB stress-free.

 

[RoamerBatteries]

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

Sorry, picking up on this thread a bit late!

Cutting the R37 resistor will disable the split charge relay thats built into the CBE unit. You would do this to prevent backfeeding from the Sterling DCDC charger while driving (it's like opening the front door while the back door is open). You would do this regardless of which leisure battery being used, its not a Roamer/Fogstar/Sterling thing. Regarding which is more suitable, thats obviously a personal choice. I'll just highlight a couple of extra features on the Roamer SMART4 that makes it a little bit better than others on the market...

Active Balancing. This ensures cells are well balanced throughout the full cycle and means you dont need an absorption stage or higher charge voltage to balance the cells. We're happy for you to charge at any voltage between 13.8V and 14.6V, no special charge profiles needed. Some caveats apply ie you need to get it to 14.4V to reset the State of Charge but as long as you set your Sterling DCDC using their standard LiFePO4 profile then its fine. And we would not recommend you float charge at 13.8V for long periods, just shut it down when in storage and you're fine. More info on how our Active Balancing works here

Emergency recovery mode. If your battery drops into low voltage protection then your CBE charger won't 'wake up' the BMS as it cannot detect an open circuit voltage. With the SMART4, you just go into the app and select the Emergency mode feature. This disables BMS protection for 30 seconds and allows you to charge normally.

Hibernation mode. The power switch gives you an easy way to shut the battery down for storage. Doing this will completely shut down the BMS so the standby draw is 1-2% per month. Also, when you come back to the battery and turn it back on - it goes into a precharge mode for the first 10 seconds which protects against surge currents to your inverter/DCDC charger. We've also got a supported way to extend/relocate this power switch which makes it a lot easier on a seatbase install - there's an extra £50 charge for this and we can fit it at the workshop before shipping (kit includes waterproof connector for the battery, a 2m cable and new switch).

There's no magic bullet to upgrading but this hopefully makes it as easy as possible to use existing system. I'd always recommend installing a DCDC charger instead of split charge relay (the battery is happy with either but you'll get better performance and less risk to alternator with a DCDC charger). When you fit a DCDC charger direct to the battery then you will probably need to bypass the old split charger. Theres a few ways to do this, you can also fit a changeover relay triggered by a D+ signal. Our support hub gives some guides on best way to do this and we're adding various new guides all the time.

Steve