Lithium LifePo4 12v Batteries - Time For An Upgrade?

[JetSetWilly]

Many thanks for all the comments, I'm inclined to go for the Roamer given the price and support (and they've taken time to respond previously in this thread).

I was hoping for a straight swap but reading this, it maybe not that easy?

You will need to change the black CBE mains charger as it doesn’t have a lithium profile (unless it’s a different model from the one I’m familiar with). That should be fairly easy as you can tap into the existing cables for it. I’m assuming the installer has also correctly disabled or bypassed the charger relay in the CBE DS300 box when the Sterling was installed? That will either be the R37 resistor snipped (bottom left) or switched off (some versions have a switch) or nothing connected to the B1 positive connector (bottom right).

You reckon this needs replacing as well? I've read some people have used the CBE CB 516 with lithium but not the CBE CB 516 version 3 which has a desulphate mode?
If I do have to replace, any suggestions. TIA

 

[ginkster]

Many thanks for all the comments, I'm inclined to go for the Roamer given the price and support (and they've taken time to respond previously in this thread).

I was hoping for a straight swap but reading this, it maybe not that easy?

View attachment 265022View attachment 265023

You reckon this needs replacing as well? I've read some people have used the CBE CB 516 with lithium but not the CBE CB 516 version 3 which has a desulphate mode?
If I do have to replace, any suggestions. TIA

I replaced mine with a Victron ip65 as I didn’t want to cause any issues, plus I was going the full Victron route. In reality I’ve not even fitted it (cables in place ready) as I find the solar covers my needs. The whole point of going lifepo4 and solar for me was to be off-grid and it has totally freed me up from EHU. Makes finding camping spots/sites very flexible. I’d drop the battery manufacturer an email to see what they say about the charger.

Can you post a pic with the cover off the DS300 to see if that’s been sorted?

 

[JetSetWilly]

I replaced mine with a Victron ip65 as I didn’t want to cause any issues, plus I was going the full Victron route. In reality I’ve not even fitted it (cables in place ready) as I find the solar covers my needs. The whole point of going lifepo4 and solar for me was to be off-grid and it has totally freed me up from EHU. Makes finding camping spots/sites very flexible. I’d drop the battery manufacturer an email to see what they say about the charger.

Can you post a pic with the cover off the DS300 to see if that’s been sorted?

Any good? TIA

 

[ginkster]

View attachment 265076View attachment 265077
Any good? TIA

Well, something is connected to the B1 post so they have not bypassed the charger relay by the look of it. Can you get a pic of the resistor R37 down in the extreme bottom left to see if that’s been cut? If not, depending what’s attached to B1, the relay charger will also be charging the leisure battery. Looks like this:



Also, the positive cabling is rather odd depending on what you have in the van. The majority goes to the right hand plug whereas I’d expect to see more go to the left. The right hand plug is for fridge, step, solar and gas. The (poorly written) instruction manual for the DS300 is available here. There is also an instruction sheet on adding a DC-DC charger to the system here. I didn’t follow this as I wanted to keep the box intact in case I revert the van back to sell in the future, or remove the box and sell it. Instead I removed the engine start signal wire and have nothing connected to B1 so the charge relay doesn’t trigger and even if it did the starter battery isn’t connected to supply power from the alternator. The only downside is you lose the starter battery indicator on the control panel but that’s total crap anyhow.

 

[JetSetWilly]

I've emailed CBE asking if the CB 156 can be used with a Lithium battery so I'll await their response but I think it's looking unlikely.

I did visit my local auto electrics shop today to ask for their advice, but they haven't moved onto Lithium yet, too new for them (normal for Norfolk...)

 

[roadtripper]

I think I recall in a previous thread with this PDU and charger that one of the wires is simply used to light up an "EHU ON" indicator on the PSU control panel if you go down the replacement with a Victron charger route and find a similar extra wire than expected.

 

[ginkster]

I've emailed CBE asking if the CB 156 can be used with a Lithium battery so I'll await their response but I think it's looking unlikely.

I did visit my local auto electrics shop today to ask for their advice, but they haven't moved onto Lithium yet, too new for them (normal for Norfolk...)


View attachment 265133View attachment 265134

I’d recommend also emailing Fogstar and/or Roamer with the details of the charger to see what they say. I’d have thought they would give better advice than CBE.

The R37 resistor looks intact and something is connected to the B1 terminal so I’d want to be sure the relay isn’t also providing a charge. Hiwever, there is no engine running wire connected so that may well stop it charging depending how one reads the rubbish CBE instructions. If that’s the case then the other instructions I linked about adding a DC-DC seem pointless - who knows! I’m also intrigued why there are 2 connections to the B1 terminal as there should only be the one from the starter battery.

 

[JetSetWilly]

I’d recommend also emailing Fogstar and/or Roamer with the details of the charger to see what they say. I’d have thought they would give better advice than CBE.

The R37 resistor looks intact and something is connected to the B1 terminal so I’d want to be sure the relay isn’t also providing a charge. Hiwever, there is no engine running wire connected so that may well stop it charging depending how one reads the rubbish CBE instructions. If that’s the case then the other instructions I linked about adding a DC-DC seem pointless - who knows! I’m also intrigued why there are 2 connections to the B1 terminal as there should only be the one from the starter battery.

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

 

[ginkster]

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

Nice one, that’s a good result. I’d still checkout the DS300 to make sure the relay in that isn’t activating. You may be able to turn off or disconnect the Sterling and then run the engine to see if any charge is going to the LB. Maybe the converters can explain how they have set it up too?

 

[davecdjt]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

 

[Drive Wayne]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

Worth looking at Dave, you'll be very happy once you've got over the financial shock! I've always been good at spending other folks money! Forum Roamer discount don't forget!

 

[davecdjt]

Worth looking at Dave, you'll be very happy once you've got over the financial shock! I've always been good at spending other folks money! Forum Roamer discount don't forget!

If/when the AGM fails I’ll have to bite the bullet. Just now I’m considering getting an alternator charger to keep my EF River 2 pro charged up. The inverter was massive. There’s nowhere obvious to put one in my set up.

 

[Drive Wayne]

If/when the AGM fails I’ll have to bite the bullet. Just now I’m considering getting an alternator charger to keep my EF River 2 pro charged up. The inverter was massive. There’s nowhere obvious to put one in my set up.

@TallPaul_S has a suggestion for the invertor...

 

[Absolut5]

Hmmm, I asked my converter about upgrading my AGM battery to a lithium and was told my CTEK 250SE isn’t up to the job so I’d have to change it and then also buy a solar controller, and if to make the most of the lithium I’d need to add an inverter. They also wanted to fit the Roamer seat base battery under my drivers seat and move most everything else to the passenger seat base. There wasn’t really a suggestion that any other battery would fit under the seat.

Not the best advise, yes the Ctek will run a lithium, the only downside is they cannot wake one up if it’s flat.

What is your usage, how long off grid etc

Drop us a pm or call if you want to talk through some options

 

[davecdjt]

Not the best advise, yes the Ctek will run a lithium, the only downside is they cannot wake one up if it’s flat.

What is your usage, how long off grid etc

Drop us a pm or call if you want to talk through some options

Thanks @Absolut5. I will message you for a second opinion. I had in mind reaching out to you

 

[Bigsidavies]

CTEK 250se deffo has a lithium profile. Achieved by connecting the battery selector wire to SB live from memory. I use mine with my Renogy 100ah LiFePo. Only issue is that it’s only 20a charger.
It was a straight swap to LiFePo from AGM when I needed a new LB. Having the ease of a lithium is a no brainer as far as I’m concerned. It makes having a LB stress-free.

 

[RoamerBatteries]

So I emailed CBE and Fogstar (I didn't email Roamer but not for any specific reason), CBE simply told me they now have a new charger called the CBE BC-122 which is specifically for lithium, however I haven't found a UK supplier if I were to replace. Fogstar was more promising, they say my current set up, CBE panel kit and my sterling BB1230 will work with their Fogstar drift 105ah, I need to change the setting on my CBE CB-156 to GEL (easy switch over) and change the settings on my Sterling BB1230 (although Fogstar say I could leave the Sterling set to AGM and it will work). The only caveat Fogstar have said is " one thing to note if the battery fully discharged and switches off the discharge, your chargers may not see it and will not charge, this can be overcome with a release function. Just so you're aware.."
I am very tempted by the Fogstar now, as I said to them, I can live with a system that may not be 100% efficient, as long as it's safe and I can always upgrade the other components over time.

Sorry, picking up on this thread a bit late!

Cutting the R37 resistor will disable the split charge relay thats built into the CBE unit. You would do this to prevent backfeeding from the Sterling DCDC charger while driving (it's like opening the front door while the back door is open). You would do this regardless of which leisure battery being used, its not a Roamer/Fogstar/Sterling thing. Regarding which is more suitable, thats obviously a personal choice. I'll just highlight a couple of extra features on the Roamer SMART4 that makes it a little bit better than others on the market...

Active Balancing. This ensures cells are well balanced throughout the full cycle and means you dont need an absorption stage or higher charge voltage to balance the cells. We're happy for you to charge at any voltage between 13.8V and 14.6V, no special charge profiles needed. Some caveats apply ie you need to get it to 14.4V to reset the State of Charge but as long as you set your Sterling DCDC using their standard LiFePO4 profile then its fine. And we would not recommend you float charge at 13.8V for long periods, just shut it down when in storage and you're fine. More info on how our Active Balancing works here

Emergency recovery mode. If your battery drops into low voltage protection then your CBE charger won't 'wake up' the BMS as it cannot detect an open circuit voltage. With the SMART4, you just go into the app and select the Emergency mode feature. This disables BMS protection for 30 seconds and allows you to charge normally.

Hibernation mode. The power switch gives you an easy way to shut the battery down for storage. Doing this will completely shut down the BMS so the standby draw is 1-2% per month. Also, when you come back to the battery and turn it back on - it goes into a precharge mode for the first 10 seconds which protects against surge currents to your inverter/DCDC charger. We've also got a supported way to extend/relocate this power switch which makes it a lot easier on a seatbase install - there's an extra £50 charge for this and we can fit it at the workshop before shipping (kit includes waterproof connector for the battery, a 2m cable and new switch).

There's no magic bullet to upgrading but this hopefully makes it as easy as possible to use existing system. I'd always recommend installing a DCDC charger instead of split charge relay (the battery is happy with either but you'll get better performance and less risk to alternator with a DCDC charger). When you fit a DCDC charger direct to the battery then you will probably need to bypass the old split charger. Theres a few ways to do this, you can also fit a changeover relay triggered by a D+ signal. Our support hub gives some guides on best way to do this and we're adding various new guides all the time.

Steve

 

[Soundz]

Can I just add in I own a Roamer gen 2 seatbase which to this day bewilders me. We don't live in a perfect world close to this time last year my BMS started to play up. i spoke to Steve and Chris and Elliot. They got my batt back at their cost replaced BMS and all is good a year on.

Roamer is more than just a battery company....this is a company that really really cares about their customers and their products......Steve was contacting me on sundays when it should be his downtime trying to get things right for me.

I'm around 60 years old Roamer is up there with the best customer care I have ever had in 6 decades.............I have no affiliation with these guys.they are just stand up decent honourable folks....in a world where honourable is a rare thing they have it in spades

@RoamerBatteries Steve thank you hope you and all had a fab chrimbo

take care

stu

 

[Samiguel]

I am weighing up the options to replace my AGM battery. Having read through this whole thread (and contributed to it last July!), I am currently juggling 2 options (both Fogstar as a I live really near them and can save on delivery!). I know the Roamer batteries have a great reputation for quality and after sales support, but they are quite a bit more expensive, even with the forum discount

Option 1: Drift ECO 100ah (lo-temp cut-off but no heater or bluetooth), but then also get a 300a Victron smart shunt to compensate for the lack of BMS. Total cost about £280

Option 2: Drift 105ah and rely on the bluetooth BMS (and the integrated heater). Currently £299

Option 1 is a bit cheaper, but has the benefit of the smart shunt which is perhaps more reliable on measuring loads and SOC etc. We're never likely to go camping in sub zero temperatures, but we do drive down to Austria for skiing so the fact both have the low-temp cut off is good, right? I've got Victron DC-DC and MPPT which are great so the idea of option 1 appeals as I have trust in the Victron kit.

The benefit of option 2 is the integrated BMS and the heater but, as @TallPaul_S has mentioned to me before, if you have a small, constant load of under 1ah the BMS gets uncalibrated - not sure this would apply to us however as we don't have 4G wi-fi or anything like that. There's also an extra 5ah of capacity to make one more ice cube for the martinis!

Our set up is pretty lo-fi with just the compressor fridge and phone/laptop charging with a few roof lights. I've got a 200w Renogy solar panel putting charge in. For the sake of £20 I'm leaning towards the Drift 105 as it seems a bit more plug and play as I can just connect it up and not worry about the cold, but I am wondering about the accuracy of the BMS with low current draw. Getting this plus the Smart Shunt is not in budget unfortunately.

Has anyone got any real-world experience of either of these batteries in the configuration I've got? I'd love to hear from you.

Cheers,

Sam

 

[TallPaul_S]

Low temp cut off is a must, and your covered there which is good.

For the heater - where's the van stored when you're not driving it, and it's it in regular use or is it just for summertime and trips away?

The heater might come in useful if it's stored during winter, as with an AMT-12 and a solar panel, you can basically keep the starter battery and leisure battery topped up with no hookup or additional chargers needed, provided it can get enough solar. If you regularly have cold days in winter, no heater might scupper this. Even 15w of solar is 1amp and might be enough to keep everything topped up over winter. It'll depend entirely on now much solar the van would get and how many days below zero you have.


On the BMS side, the Victron app is easier to access than the Fogstar app, and you're already going to be using it with your other Victron kit. 1 app Vs 2.

As for the BMS inaccuracies - that could be a bigger issue if you think you'll be running the battery down to 20% or lower regularly - even with normal use you'll very likely not see the correct % on the BMS, due to low solar days, or just using a few lights etc. so you might find that you're in a situation where you think you have 15% but the battery suddenly cuts off because it's actually at 0%.