The Ford | T7 Conundrum

[Jacobsroodt]

The Ford | T7 Conundrum​

I wonder if Volkswagen made the right decision by rebadging the Ford Transit Custom as the next-generation VW Transporter (T6.1 successor). Was this a strategic move, or was it simply a matter of reallocating development funds to the ID Buzz?

The Nissan-Mercedes X-Class project serves as a cautionary tale—Mercedes-Benz attempted to enter the pickup market with a rebadged Nissan Navara, but the result was a commercial failure. Customers saw it as nothing more than a premium-priced Nissan. In contrast, the new VW Amarok, built on the Ford Ranger platform, may succeed because the Ranger itself is a high-quality, premium product.

However, Volkswagen’s T-series has a different legacy—one that dates back to 1949 and has spanned 75 years of cult status. Whether it’s the classic T1, the beloved T3 Syncro, or the modern T6, these vehicles have always been true Volkswagens. The Ford Transit Custom, while a competent commercial van, never achieved the same emotional connection or global following.

Many VW enthusiasts feel disappointed that the latest Transporter is a rebadged Ford, raising two key questions:

1. Will customers accept the new Transporter as a real VW?
2. Will it achieve the same commercial success as its predecessors?

Volkswagen has taken a bold step, but I fear that this decision has already diluted the legacy of the T-series.

 

[whodat]

Considering VW's legacy as a whole, it is surprising that they were still allowed to operate under the same badge past 1946.

The differences are just enough to keep the price of cosmetic/often needed parts expensive - as in the headlights are different, grilles different - etc. If there was a more unified approach (see a lot of the Stellantis small van) there would be a lot less wastage and prices would be kept lower but that isn't what 'enthusiasts' want.
Maybe the only selling point is the 5 year service? Maybe some difference in trim?
Why else would someone pay 20% extra for (is it really?) the same van?
Lots of questions that we'll have a better idea of answers in a couple of years.

 

[Kind of Blue]

I have no particular brand loyalty. The important thing to me is that a product either fits my life and style or can easily be adapted to do so. That it has 4x4 capability will go up and down my access routes, can do some other off road travel. Something the size of a T6 and if it came from Dacia that would suit me. Their is a rummer that Dacia may be developing a van and great if it has AWD. I am surprised that Landrover have not made something except that they want to look very upmarket and probably think it may spoil their cultivated image. They made a number of Forward Control vehicles the best one being the LR101FC which had permanent 4x4 transfer box and had a V8 engine.

 

[Sasquatch]

They're selling well enough, apparently, and that's all VW care about as a business. We can thrash this out time and time again, but the bottom line is us enthusiast owners are a tiny part of their customer base so what we may or may not think is completely irrelevant - we, for the most part, are not their target audience.

As already discussed, small businesses and tradesman seem to be attracted by the 5 year warranty and 5 years bundled servicing, and the extra cost is irrelevant when offset against tax, and orders are coming in. There is already a short waiting list for some specs.

The extra cost isn't so much fun for fleet buyers who want volume at a keen price, but for the most part they were never - with a few notable exceptions - choosing the VW product anyway.

Oh, and it's just "Transporter". VW have designated a different product as T7.

 

[Salty Spuds]

...... but that isn't what 'enthusiasts' want.

Here in our T6 forum bubble, we have a distorted view of the transporter market. The vast majority of transporters are bought by fleet buyers at huge discounts, RAC/SKY/Wates/Enterprise van hire/Our local Council etc. The small businesses & private buyers are just a side hustle and pay through the nose for the VW badge. I think this area of the market will suffer, but the commercial side, where the money is for VW will continue "as-is". VW don't make vans for us enthusiasts, they build vans for bulk VAT registered buyers who write them off after 5 years & cash in on the residuals. I suspect to these buyers, there will be little if any "VW Tax" added to the fleet price that they negotiate with VW.
I actually believe that the new Trannyporter is a stopgap similar to the Sprincrafter. Both companies will be watching what happens to the market re.Electric /diesel vans, before investing in the next generation of their own individual models. Commercially it makes sense in the short term.

 

[Sasquatch]

Just got an attack of curiosity and have been looking at prices, reviews, etc. It transpires the base VW model is actually 4% less expensive on the list price than the basic transit.

It starts to get muddier further up the range as the specs aren't directly comparable, but worst case scenario is nowhere near 20% stated above, not even double digits percent, so there does seem to be a lot misinformation floating around about prices.

 

[Bav]

Here in our T6 forum bubble, we have a distorted view of the transporter market. The vast majority of transporters are bought by fleet buyers at huge discounts, RAC/SKY/Wates/Enterprise van hire/Our local Council etc. The small businesses & private buyers are just a side hustle and pay through the nose for the VW badge. I think this area of the market will suffer, but the commercial side, where the money is for VW will continue "as-is". VW don't make vans for us enthusiasts, they build vans for bulk VAT registered buyers who write them off after 5 years & cash in on the residuals. I suspect to these buyers, there will be little if any "VW Tax" added to the fleet price that they negotiate with VW.
I actually believe that the new Trannyporter is a stopgap similar to the Sprincrafter. Both companies will be watching what happens to the market re.Electric /diesel vans, before investing in the next generation of their own individual models. Commercially it makes sense in the short term.

I agree that we have a distorted view of the market, but the margin VW makes from the sale of an undiscounted, private, typically high-spec van will be an order of magnitude higher than that for the sale of a highly-discounted, typically low-spec'd, fleet van. Having said that, I'm sure VW's bean-counters will have weighed that up against the cost of developing their own mid-sized van.

 

[Kind of Blue]

It all about the money! Living in a recession with governments posturings towards potential hostility and expansionism, insecure fuel supplies and so on companies will do anything to stay afloat. It is sensible for cross company developments to keep down design and production costs. Companies need stable times just as we all do. I guess that mass sales or lease out weigh private purchases. The switch over to E is bound to be slow and troubled even with government prodding. Who or what would pile everything into uncertainty.

 

[Paynewright]

Shame some companies have made big decisions based on the Govts edict on battery powered future. Fiesta and Up/Mii/Citigo ceased production to name a few.

These were ideal low emissions cars to help the transition! I wonder if Ford and VW group would have made the same decision knowing what they know now?

 

[Sasquatch]

People have all but stopped buying A segment cars. What was once a profitable niche by virtuenof volume is no more. Shame, because I like little city cars, but schmucks want to drive pretend SUVs and manufacturers are happy to let them because they make more profit on each unit.

And it's a double shame because, as you say, a new generation of lightweight, super clean and economical city cars might have been just the environmental ticket over the short to medium term.

 

[Jacobsroodt]

Thanks @Sasquatch and @ Salty Spuds.
In South Africa we had a VW advert depicting VW loyalty over generations, from the Beetle till the Golf 3 GTI then, which reflected the sentiment at the time. The Previous gen Polo is still built and sold in South Africa as a staple to the nation. Similarly T* owners swear by their bus. We have had all the generations from T3 onwards in our family.
So taking a sober look from a fleet buyer's perspective is, well, sobering. What you are saying is that it doesn't matter whether it is a true VW or not.

The reality is that:
a. the EV transformation is unsettling
b. the Chinese and surrounding manufacturers' onslaught is a real threat to European manufacturers

I guess one would just have to make peace with the new reality. I have never been a Ford fan, but then my friend's new Mustang 5.0GT does inspire!

 

[John A]

The Ford | T7 Conundrum​

Unless I am very much mistaken, the one on the right is the "T7" (as designated by VW) Multivan and is built in Hanover by VW on the MQB platform. It isn't a Ford.

This is the one built in Turkey using the Transit architecture and not officially a T7


A lot of it is to do with tooling in Hanover being used for the Buzz and whatever the future of VW Commercial (probably EV) is.
I was told by an RAC bloke that VW were going to build the big Transit (the Ford/VW product is the Transit Custom) in Germany, but seeing as the Crafter has been built in Poland since 2017, I call BS on that one.

 

[Sasquatch]

The reality is that:
a. the EV transformation is unsettling

For some. I don't have an issue with (we're on our fourth) and plenty people feel the same.

Almost 98% of folk who get an E car stick with electric for their next vehicle, which demonstrates those who do dip their toe are overwhelmingly happy. Thar begs the question as to why anyone should feel unsettled in the first place.

Much of the remaining disquiet is driven by the pseudoscientific nonsense the likes of the Dail Mail trot out.

b. the Chinese and surrounding manufacturers' onslaught is a real threat to European manufacturers

Absolutely. People rubbished the Japanese auto industry in the seventies, and by the end of the decade they'd taken over the world.

The western motor industry and the buying public clearly aren't students of history, because now it's happening all over again hit with the Chinese this time. Industry,consumers and society have more or less ignored the lesson of the recent last sleepwalked into the same situation. We've done it to ourselves, the only difference being the process has been so much more rapid this time around. I don't have a lot of sympathy for an industry and buying public that ignores such a lesson.

 

[Kind of Blue]

E vehicle ownership would be a concern for many living in the country. Their are very few public hook ups and distance needed to travel to a town and back. Nothing is just around the block. It would be awkward for people in the country travelling any distance for their work commute, particularly those who live in terrace houses that front the roadside, those who may need to park away from their dwelling. At the moment it is not like filling up with petrol or diesel, say ten minutes or less all in, fuel and payment. So travelling some distance to pick someone up from a station or just meeting up could be a right pain. Everything would need planing in advance. Imagine comming home after a long commute or any travel. Say a son or daughter rings up from a station or one needs to travel some distance for any family emergency. A, might not be able to manage the journey at all or b get so far and stuck because its run out of E juice. The poorer people are, the worse that situation. That might be because they can not afford a car with any decent range or any new E vehicle for that matter. They might need to buy a cheaper used one with a clapped out battery, that is only just sufficient to go somewhere but not return. Another thing is that the electricity supply is not always reliable in the country. We where recently cut off from electricity for a week. It is not the first time either it can be a common occurance in the winter. Cut of some length happens every year and the phone went off too because it is fibre amazingly enough and it was down for almost a month. After a short time the mobile network went down also because no power at the transmitters and repeaters. Modern technology is unreliable in the country, it would need big investment and safe gaurds, back ups and so on. So E Vehicle ownership for most ordinary people in the countryside could be a nightmare. At least in a town one could hop on a bus or train not in many a country place.

 

[Sasquatch]

Until last year I lived in the countryside, and despite being taller and  fatter more muscular than average im pretty ordinary . At that point we were on out 3rd E car and were managing quite merrily.

I can recall several occasions this century alone where pump fuel became difficult or Impossible to buy (the fuel protests of 2000 being the most significant and caused several weeks of shortages and several more of disruption as supplies were restored ) for shortish periods and no-one cited that as a reason for not driving an ICE car if you live in the boonies.

Safeguards and backups of supply are equally pertinent to ICE cars.

 

[Kind of Blue]

Until last year I lived in the countryside, and despite being taller and  fatter more muscular than average im pretty ordinary . At that point we were on out 3rd E car and were managing quite merrily.

I can recall several occasions this century alone where pump fuel became difficult or Impossible to buy (the fuel protests of 2000 being the most significant and caused several weeks of shortages and several more of disruption as supplies were restored ) for shortish periods and no-one cited that as a reason for not driving an ICE car if you live in the boonies.

Safeguards and backups of supply are equally pertinent to ICE cars.

The only time we have had a fuel shortage at the pump here is 25-30 years ago.

 

[RobertO2023]

New Transporter v New transit apart ……..
Current small EV commercials can’t offer the range I would ever be happy with. eg my T32 fully laden and towing 2400kg trailer Versus EV. equivalent would probably run out of charge after 50 miles! Hydrogen is the future - now there’s a serious debate

 

[ChestnutBrown]

Been a VW or Audi driver for almost all my life, first car being a ‘73 Beetle, ‘83 Mk1 Golf GTi, ‘95 Mk3 Golf Driver, ‘98 Audi A3 T Sport, 2001 Audi A2, 2012 Touran, to name a few. With a few randoms in between out of curiosity, E30 BMW, Mazda MX-5, CX-5, etc.

Having said I would never buy a Ford, we ended up with 2 within 2 months and they were both great tbh!

Still have the Puma, but sold the Focus Estate to buy my T6 recently as should have scratched that itch instead of playing it safe with the Focus last year.

My point is that Ford’s are very good cars nowadays and I really wonder what opinions would have been had the wet built engines not been in place in the new models!?!

Although they’re no more or less problematic than the BiTurbo that VW never really fixed.

I have to say that I do feel rather smitten with my T6 and VW badge sitting in the wheel once more, so there is a lot to consider here.

 

[John A]

I had a mk5 Escort (terrible), mk6 Escort (not much better), mk3 Mondeo (excellent) and a facelifted mk1 Focus estate (also excellent)
Since then I've had various stuff from VAG and BMW as daily drivers. The best all round was my 2013 A4. Compared to the Fords, the German stuff has it nailed in terms of quality - I always felt that you could see where your money went with an Audi or BMW, but I don't think it matters so much with the commercial stuff.

My T6 is, after all, a commercial vehicle - albeit with a few 'luxuries' that make it feel like a big car.
My pal (and co-presenter) has a T5.1 shuttle which had a bump needing a new tailgate, just before last year's Campervan Campout. His courtesy "bus" was the outgoing Transit Custom in Crew Cab (our Kombi) format with a tailgate. By his own admission it was quiet, comfortable, economical and drove really well with lots of space (I think he said it had 14 cup holders) and he only took against it because it had a Ford badge.

I think the wet belt will put people off but they can't ALL be bad. Just the same as the EGRs on the Bi-Turbo VWs can't all be bad.
The Puma is (I understand) the best selling car at the moment. Stellantis have how many cars on the market at the moment from Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat, Vauxhall, etc., which all have wet belts and they haven't all gone bang.

 

[whodat]

They won't all go 'bang' till about 100,000 miles. Give or take.